What would a state school do with a pupil who arrived bilingual in a language that was compulsory at the school?

[castille]

Would a school make any provision for a pupil who was already bilingual in French, for example, or would s/he have to do the same lessons as everyone else?

[Lancelottie]

Ours does. Most children do French, but DS's bilingual friend is doing Spanish instead with an older group. He was offered the option of staying with his year and being used as the demonstrator, but didn't want to.

[FingonTheValiant]

DH teaches a fair few children already bilingual in French or Spanish. Generally they either stay in the lesson, but do separate work, or they go and work with one of the other language teachers in another classroom, if the other language teacher is not teaching.

It also depends what year they enter at. So if they come in later they may do the same work, as bilingual students are still entered for GCSE etc and have to learn the methods and requirements. If they come in at year 7, they are prepped to take the GCSE in either year 7 or 8, and then they start working on AS level stuff (this is in a school that only goes up to Year 11, so takes quite a bit of extra work from the teachers, but they do sort it).

However, in the case of one or two, if they come in fluent in French/Spanish, but not speaking much English, then they have English lessons instead, still often with a free MFL teacher. Obviously this wont apply for the bilingual students, they just do different work.

Quite commonly they find that while the child speaks and understands fluently their reading and, especially, writing are not a high enough standard for even GCSE sometimes, in which cases they do the relevant parts of the lesson and not others.

One bilingual child at dh's school (which I also teach at, hence knowing the results, 'tis not big-mouthed dh) unfortunately only got a D on his GCSE because he refused to believe that his reading and writing wasn't good enough and wouldn't work on it. Despite his mother telling him that she couldn't understand when he wrote.

Quick overview, but hth.

[FingonTheValiant]

Sounds like a good decision Lancelottie, being used as a demonstrator will hardly help him. Sensible lad!

Oh yes, some will offer the option of simply doing a different language, sadly it's not possible at dh's school until Year 9. Sometimes it works out, and they are in a different language by chance (they alternate each year), in which case, the teachers will often work on the GCSE stuff after school with them, ready for exam in Year 8.

[castille]

I see, sounds good.

If they do separate or slightly different work in the same language, is that work set by the class teacher, or someone else?

[FingonTheValiant]

Hmm, not sure about most schools. I would guess whoever they think can gauge the levels best, or the class teacher at the beginning.

DH is French, so he sets all the work for the fluent/fluent-ish French speakers as he can guarantee a high enough level for them, and often brings back work from France to use with them, to supplement the GCSE/A level stuff. Obviously, French writing exercises for French children being more demanding than for those learning a second language in England.

The Spanish is taken care of by the Head of Department, who is a fluent Spanish speaker, but isn't Spanish, and I know she consults with other teachers (for example, their most junior language teacher has the best Spanish) to make sure that it's ok.

The bilingual students also often do a lot of work with the language assistants if the teacher is occupied with the rest of the class, as they are always native speakers, so can work on the higher level work with them.

To be fair, there's probably a much higher degree of independent learning for them, the teachers just don't have time. I know this year, for example, that none of the bilingual students will be able to work with actual MFL teachers during their timetabled lesson, as the MFL department is really stretched and they don't have the free time to do it. So they'll be in class, with hopefully the assistants at least, but even the assistants have to work with the non-bilingual children a fair amount.

[castille]

It sounds quite good to me, a lot better than nothing.

Do you think this sort of thing is standard practice in state schools?

[FingonTheValiant]

Well DH's school is a Sports Academy and has a massively undervalued MFL department, gets very little budget and time allocation etc, so if they can manage it I'm sure others must do. I doubt though that the higher ups could tell you much about it, the MFL teachers deal with it themselves. In fact, they often have no idea that they have bilingual children coming in until they spot one in class.

I think well-motivated language teachers will deal with this themselves, and really good schools will have a policy on it. Also worth telling them in advance if you dont mind/want them to be entered early for exams. This will give the school the incentive to sort something out, as it gives them something to brag about in the newsletter etc :)

Worth saying though, sometimes the bilingual children like to hide. They dont want to draw attention to themselves, either as being really good at something or as being a bit foreign, in case they're teased; or they think it means they get an easy ride for one subject. I would make a point of seeing the head of languages, or emailing, to make it very clear that the child is bilingual and does not need to sit there learning colours etc. Also, that you do not want them being used as a demonstrator - Lancelottie's post is not the first time I've heard that idea.

My own state school is now a language specialist school, and would be super hot on something like this, so it might be worth seeing if there's one of those in your area.

[FingonTheValiant]

Also, they have a very odd setting system, whereby their sets for English determine their sets for languages, so they sometimes have fluent French speakers in one of the bottom French sets because they're not so good at English Lit. In these situations DH does exactly the same as for the others, but pays closer attention to the other children's homework :o

[FingonTheValiant]

DH and I are planning to move back to France fairly soon, and my plan is to try to get them into a different language, so find a school that offers German instead of English. I think this gets around some of the issues of them potentially wasting their time etc.

I would also look for that as a first choice in an English school. DH's school is in someways the worst case scenario, and is better than nothing. They can't offer a different language, so they simply try to further what they've got. Great for kids who don't read or write much at home, but if they are emailing cousins or whatever, then probably not so much use.

[castille]

We don't live in the UK at the moment but it is vaguely possible we might be moving back, at least temporarily, which is why I ask. It sounds very encouraging (apart from the baffling setting system at your DH's school).

Specialist lang schools sound like a good place to start. Thank you.

[castille]

You might have trouble finding a state school that doesn't do English as LV1. If there is no school with a bilingual section where you want to live, the least-worst option is probably a classe bilangue offering German/Spanish/Chinese/Russian/whatever ( + English from 6e, which are pretty much everywhere now.

[FingonTheValiant]

If you're moving back, I would definitely try for a completely different language, as the reading and writing help wont really help them. Maybe just bring some French work books/cahiers de vacances to make sure they don't fall behind in case you do go back.

Yes, the setting at dh's school is really weird, but it's the only place I've heard of it being done like that.

Have already pretty much ruled out state school in France for that very reason. A couple of the privates where we're looking have different options, but no bilingual section, we're too far out in the countryside. Hadn't thought of a classe bilangue though, that might be a good compromise and save my being cursed by children who want an easy life :o On a plus side, being so far into the middle of nowhere makes the private fees very reasonable.

Oh, and the bilingual children at DH's school also all get pretty much forced into my extra-curricular Latin class (which is another reason I know so much about them), by MFL I should add, not me. This maintains a much higher grammar standard for them, and gives them a bit of linguistic challenge, and they all find it easier than the English pupils do.

[blackisthisyearspink]

A state school would get them to take a GCSE in that language either early or at the usual time if it was a more unusual language (I am thinking of a recent newspaper article celebrating the achievments of a child who recently arrived in the UK)

[castille]

Ha! DD1 would curse being forced into compulsory Latin! She isn't a big fan of reading, sadly, and gets cross that she has to study so much literature "just because" she speaks 2 languages (she's in 4e of a bilingual section in a private school).

Whereas DD2 is bored out of her mind for 4 hours a week doing 6e level English with the rest of her class in a state school, when she loves reading & writing and is very good at literature study and creative writing! It's reassuring to know that UK state schools are likely to make more of an effort.

[FingonTheValiant]

I do think schools in the UK are much more flexible about that sort of thing. It really worries me about the French system. But they are talking about reforms ( I'll believe it when I see it) so I'm hoping that by the time I have to deal with it there may be more leeway.

The Latin isn't compulsory, a couple have sloped off over the course of a year, but most of them like doing it. I think it gives them an opportunity to be smug, without everyone saying they have an unfair advantage (although they do, but fortunately the complexities of linguistics aren't apparent to most teenagers lol)

I think your DDs would probably quite enjoy the UK way of doing it for a while, but ultimately I'm not sure it's as rigorous.

[castille]

They would probably love it, away from the stifling rigidity for a while. The lack of rigour worries me but tbh the system here doesn't suit DD1 particularly well, it's all a bit of a battle.

[abeautifulbutterfly]

My bilingual DD has just started a primary school in rural Poland where the only MFL taught is English! She has to attend (no special provision) but nobody involved minds because it backs up my home reading teaching, the teacher has a demonstrator and she gets praised (which doesn't otherwise happen all that often!). She has become instantly popular since the Eng teacher told her Y6 class about her (luckily Eng is much sought after here so she's got instant celeb status ).
I have enrolled her in a private German class after school so she gets to learn a foreign lang.

[Molly499]

FingonTheValiant - I wouldn't worry too much about having to do English when you arrive in France; the schooling system is so tough here that a little bit of any easy ride in one area could be a welcome break, plus English is required for the BREVET exam.

These are the standard options at our school which is a private Catholic school 'sous contat' meaning that it has to follow the national curriculum.

6eme (11-12) Enlish

5eme (12-13) English plus an introduction
to German, Spanish, and Italien.
Latin is optional

4eme (13-14) English
Spanish or German
Latin optional

3eme (14-15) As 4eme with all subjects
counting towards BREVET exam.

English plus either Spanish or German are also compulsory in the first two years of a BAC course so there really is no escape from it.

School hours are long here in France, with a total emphasis on learning stuf by heart. Classroom life is very strict and I do think that it will be tough going initially if your children have only been to school in the UK.

[Molly499]

Interestingly we are looking at a move back to the UK with our children aged 12, 14, & 16 so the thread has been great. Despite the fact that all three children are fluent in both languages our greatest problem will be a lack of decent written English combined with a very different schooling system. Any advice would be greatly received.

[CaptainKirksNipples]

My cousin did this with French around 10 years ago, she lived there for 5 years and moved back over here to start secondary school. she took German that was offered and did Higher and then Advanced Higher French when her friends were doing Standard Grades.

[FingonTheValiant]

Hi Molly,

Thanks for that breakdown, it's really interesting! I just wish they could do a language other than English a bit earlier in school, even if English is inescapable. Fortunately it looks likely that we'll be off soon enough that our DC will never make it to school in England, so the French system will be all they know. And I'll be making sure that Papa tells them more about his time at school than I do, hopefully they'll never know that we deliberately stuck them in a much harsher system.

TBH, the quality of written English I see from my students leads me to doubt that your children will have that much trouble (sad, but true).

Can you maybe get them to join an English forum? Or have they got cousins they can email? And then ban them from txt spk (which I witnessed written in GCSE English exams last year ). Actually, mumsnet would be perfect. Stick them on Pedant's Corner :o

I'm trying to prepare for a French concours for work during the next year or so, so dh is doing dictée with me and setting me essays to get my writing up to scratch. It's boring even for me, but might work with your children if you explain why. And I do think it'll take them less time to attain a good standard of written English, than French, so they're doing it the right way round at least.

HTH, I'll ask dh later and see if he has any other suggestions for you :)

[mummytime]

Also if the school doesn't offer your language, quite often they will support children sitting GCSEs in the mother tongue or other language. (I've known children sit Bengali GCSE for example.)

[frakkinnakkered]

English isn't actually compulsory for the brevet. Or at least it's not here - the choice is English or German in most schools, depending on which the school chooses plus one of those two or Spanish, Italian, Chinese or Russian, with the exception of the French/Chinese bilingual schools which then offer German or English in 6eme.

I have a couple of private students who don't learn English at all because their school does German primarily and the timetable wouldn't permit English so they come to me and we prepare the Cambridge exams, or the TOEFL.

That said I'm in a DOM and things can be different.

Are you preparing the CAPES, Fingon?

[frakkinnakkered]

Sorry castille, that went off topic! Hope you find a good specialist language school.

[FingonTheValiant]

Actually haven't decided so I'm preparing to prepare for either the Concours Fonction Publique or the CAFEP. Probably I'll go for the former, but it'll be a lot tougher.

Thanks for the extra info frakkin! :)