domestic violence

[gonaenodaethat]

A friend of mine has split from his wife.
They got along reasonably well after the split and he was seeing his DS.
As soon as he started seeing someone else she stopped all contact and has accused him of domestic abuse. She has been to the police.
Now, he says it never happened. I want to believe him but I find it hard to believe that a woman would lie about something like this.
I want to be supportive but don't know what to think.
Would someone go so far as to make this up just for revenge?
Am confused.

[GypsyMoth]

many women do....yes!

this is why alot of men end up going to court for access....and why judges will get a fact finding hearing ordered,to find out the truth!

[arfarfa]

It's a weak point in the current family law system which, I'm ashamed to say, it seems some women take advantage of in order to gain a short/medium term advantage in relation to contact and residency issues.
People, who are so wrapped up in their own self-importance that they conveniently 'forget' that it's the childrens needs which are critical, make me despair.

[lazarusb]

My (female) friend did this. Her dp nearly had a breakdown and lost his business.It made me so angry- she had an affair but wanted to stay on in the house with him still paying all the bills. The weird thing is they got back together in the end and have been very happy for the last 8 years.

[celticfairy101]

Sadly it does happen. Nastiness isn't just confined to the male gender.

[Confuzled]

A friend of mine is in this exact same situation. In our case, it's easier to know she is lying, not him, because unknown to her, 2 witnesses were in the sitting room when she collected their dd from the front door, and overheard her do and say things that were utterly unspeakable... and that is now one of the incidents she is citing as abusive, only she attributes her own behaviour to him! Unbelievable. The two witnesses had stayed neutral and stayed friends with both sides before that, too - she used to ask them to babysit for her. There is a lot of other evidence of lying as well. Just shocking that someone we used to think was okay, if a bit selfish, could do this.

I think women who do this to block contact are as bad as women who falsely claim rape. They are endangering the lives of children genuinely at risk, and sabotaging their own children's mental health. Unforgivable. Look at all the women on here who are really at risk, and how DARE people make their lot even harder by faking it and therefore making it harder to know when it's a genuine case? IMO where there is proof, as there is in the case I know of, that she is lying then residence should immediately be given to the other parent. A woman or man capable of doing this is not able to put their child's interests first, or even think in terms of those interests.

[gonaenodaethat]

Am seriously shocked. I would never've thought that a woman would do this for all the reasons above.
It's beyond my comprehension.
My poor friend. He'll probably lose his job over this.

[GypsyMoth]

What evidence does she claim to have?? Courts are quite wise to this behaviour

[chattymitchie]

It's a difficult situation, unfortunately when people do cry wolf, it's like confuzled says, it makes it far more difficult for the people who really are being abused to get people to believe them (I should know ), sometimes it's just easier for friends to believe that the woman is lying than to believe that the guy has done something, so I guess just wait and see whether she can provide any proof.

[malinkey]

This reminds me of when I was a child and my mother went around telling people that my father had broken her finger. She tried saying the same to me years later but had forgotten that I had been in the room at the time of the 'incident' when she punched my dad so hard that she did actually break her finger - while he stood there and took it.

Her reasons for doing this - God knows - but she wanted to be seen as the victim while she was in fact the abusive partner. Anyone who knew the two of them would not have believed her - but people who only heard her side might have been sucked in. Thankfully she didn't make any official allegations.

Some women are nasty or just plain doolally. The fact that your friend's ex only made these allegations once your friend had met someone else might seem a bit suspicious, if she was able to be friendly with him beforehand.

[gonaenodaethat]

Malinkey, that's awful. We've always felt that she was the abuser and were relieved when they split.
I always suspected she'd make it difficult for him to see his DS but never thought she'd stoop this low.
I guess you're right, some women are nasty/doolally/both.

[GypsyMoth]

why??

[GypsyMoth]

yes,i saw your same remark on dismantles thread

these are 2 or 3 threads out of thousands on mumsnet though,and dismantle hasnt been proven?

[HerBeatitude]

A minority of women would make up stories like this, yes.

But the majority of claims of DV are true. In general, men lie about DV, not women.

This is a little like rape - the myths the media love, are in direct inversion to the truth. So the media are terribly worried about a tiny minority of men who are falsely accused of DV/ rape, but not remotely worried about the thousands of women who are abused / raped and who do not conform to their idea of what an abuse or rape victim should act or be like.

And yes, I'm also sceptical about this post UA.

[arfarfa]

I don't wish to be picky, but there is quite a lot in there which is presented as empirical fact:

-"A minority of women would make up stories like this"

-"...the majority of claims of DV are true"

-"In general, men lie about DV, not women"

-"...a tiny minority of men who are falsely accused of DV/ rape"

-"...not remotely worried about the thousands of women who are abused / raped"

I'm assuming that you have arrived at these conclusions upon the back of hard, statistical, gender-bias-free data, (ie not collated by a womens/mens 'charity'), in which case I'd be really grateful if you would share it. My own research has led me to what many people would probably believe to be the obvious result, i.e, that there are bad men, and there are also bad women, in roughly equal proportions.
Here's an interesting proposition:
Much research indicates that abusive/sociopath behaviour is dis-proportionally correlated to experiences of abuse which the abuser themselves suffered earlier in their lives.
Now, if that is the case, and if it is also the case that there is a huge statistical bias towards women being (semi-exclusively) 'the abused', then that would seem to indicate that women are potentially the most likely to abuse!

[GypsyMoth]

arfafa....this is a parenting forum,not a university where anything you see needs to be backed up with 'empirical evidence' fgs!!

[Gettingagrip]

"Much research indicates that abusive/sociopath behaviour is dis-proportionally correlated to experiences of abuse which the abuser themselves suffered earlier in their lives."

That (above) statement is true......

"Now, if that is the case, and if it is also the case that there is a huge statistical bias towards women being (semi-exclusively) 'the abused', then that would seem to indicate that women are potentially the most likely to abuse! "

That statement has no connection whatsoever with your first statment.

If one assumes that children, male and female are abused in equal number....research has shown that males tend to protect themselves by becoming narcissistic abusers, and females tend to protect themselves by becoming borderline 'victims'.

And what is the problem with evidence collected by Men's/ Women's 'charities' pray?
Are you saying that these 'charities' are not entitled to carry out research and present their findings?

And can we have some citations to your own personal research please?

I agree that there are 'bad' men and 'bad' women, and I actually have personal knowledge and experience of some 'bad' people of both genders.

Perhaps you could let us have the numbers for women killed by men and visa-versa?

I think you will find that they are not quite equal!

[Snorbs]

"This is a little like rape - the myths the media love, are in direct inversion to the truth. So the media are terribly worried about a tiny minority of men who are falsely accused of DV"

Piffle. The media, in general, doesn't give a shit about men accused of DV except to portray them as evil abusers and that there's no smoke without fire.

Neither does the media really recognise the prevalence of female-on-male DV and emotional abuse as they believe the stories about how only a tiny minority of abuse victims are male (and, often, with an accompanying insinuation that a lot of those are gay and being abused by their male partners). Which simply isn't true - 20% of men and 30% of women have been victims of domestic violence. Those are sizable numbers of both sexes.

My personal suspicion is that when it comes to emotional abuse (rather than physical violence), male and female abusers are probably pretty equal in numbers. I cite as evidence the number of threads on MN about nutjob MILs, SILs, grandmothers etc.

[malinkey]

Unlikely - I hope you are ok. Your posts I have found incredibly supportive/informative/inspiring/helpful since I've started reading and posting on here over the last couple of months. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

I hope your message above wasn't in response to mine about my mother - which I can promise you is entirely true (sadly) and only one of a number of such incidents. I am and have been discovering an awful lot about myself and my current (and previous) relationship - and my childhood experiences - since being on here and it is posters like you who make mumsnet the amazing forum that it is.

Please don't let the minority of sadly misdirected posters colour your view of everything on here. We need you!

[gonaenodaethat]

Do you think I'm a troll?

[arfarfa]

"And what is the problem with evidence collected by Men's/ Women's 'charities' pray?
Are you saying that these 'charities' are not entitled to carry out research and present their findings?"
Charities are obviously entitled to carry out their own research. Just as we are entitled to consider the possibility of 'narrative building' which any such charity, be it for men or women, may be trying to build. The first quote, below, springs to mind:

-Donald G. Dutton and Tonia L. Nicholls, from the Department of Psychology at the University of British Columbia also undertook a meta-analysis of data in 2005. They concluded: "At some point, one has to ask whether feminists are more interested in diminishing violence within a population or promoting a political ideology. If they are interested in diminishing violence, it should be diminished for all members of a population and by the most effective and utilitarian means possible."

Re your request for stats:

-29% of women and 18% of men aged 16 to 59 reported that they had experienced one or more types of abuse (non-sexual abuse such as use of physical force, being prevented from having money or seeing friends or being belittled, sexual assault and stalking) at the hands of a current or former partner at some time since age 16.
Coleman, K. et al. (2007) Homicides, firearm offences and intimate violence 2005/2006: supplementary volume 1 to Crime in England and Wales 2005/2006 (PDF). London: Home Office. Research, Development and Statistics Directorate.

-One in five women (19%) and one in ten men (10%) reported that they had experienced physical force by a partner or former partner at some time since age 16.
Coleman, K. et al. (2007) Homicides, firearm offences and intimate violence 2005/2006: supplementary volume 1 to Crime in England and Wales 2005/2006 (PDF). London: Home Office. Research, Development and Statistics Directorate.

-Dr. Martin Fiebert, from the Department of Psychology of California State University, has compiled an annotated bibliography of research relating to spousal abuse by women on men. This bibliography examines 155 scholarly investigations: 126 empirical studies and 29 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 116,000. It has also been found that many kinds of behavior, such as pushing and slapping, are experienced by both genders, but are mainly called "violence" by female victims. Early studies that merely asked "have you been a victim of domestic violence" did find far lower levels of male victims; but when they asked about specific behaviors ("have you been slapped, punched,...), the numbers evened out. Justice Department studies show that men are 32% less likely than women to report any form of violent victimization.

-A 2006 study showed that women in the United States commit domestic violence against men 33% more often than men do against women, and women commit severe domestic violence twice as often as men.

-The rate of minor assaults by women was 78 per 1,000 couples, compared with a rate for men of 72 per 1,000. The severe assault rate was 46 per 1,000 couples for assaults by women and 50 per 1,000 for assaults by men. Neither difference is statistically significant. Since these rates are based exclusively on information provided by women respondents, the near-equality in assault rates cannot be attributed to a gender bias in reporting."

[Miggsie]

My SIL accused my brother...she wante dit on record so if he ever left her, he could not see the kids.

So he stays, and she gets a nice house becuase he does not want to lose contact with his kids. He says he will elave when the kids leave home.

She ignores him and drinks a lot.

My firend's partner has been accused of so many things by his ex that you would think he was Attilla the Hun, he is actually a very mild mannered bloke (my friend was previously in an abusive relationship and she say he is not even remotely abusive, which is why she is with him). The ex wife is mad as a box of frogs.

So, there are cases where women accuse men falsely.

However, there are also cases whre a man denies everything and has been abusive, my friend's ex who still thinks his 2 divorces were down to the wives becoming lesbians (neither of them are or were lesbians). Nothing to do with him beating the shit out of them and threatening his 6 month old baby, no they were unreasonable lesbians and HE was the hard done-by one.

The only way really to suss whether he is telling the truth is listen carefully to how he talks about women and relationships in general. IS he always right? Was she always wrong? Are the examples he gives of her unreasonableness actually unreasonable?

If your friend appears perfectly normal and does not speak of women like they were dogs and does not have a huge opinion of himself, then likely she is saying there was violence in order to piss him off, assert power over him, make sure she gets money but he can't see the kids...etc etc.

[Confuzled]

"This is a little like rape - the myths the media love, are in direct inversion to the truth. So the media are terribly worried about a tiny minority of men who are falsely accused of DV"

Sorry, but here I call bullshit.

There are few advantages in falsely crying rape. You go through hell, as I understand it, during the process and stand a not that fantastic chance of securing a conviction, even if it goes to trial. If you are proven to have deliberately lied, you can and sometimes do go to prison. You need to be incredibly disturbed to do it.

There are advantages, in some situations, to falsely alleging domestic violence. You get the right to remain in the home in circumstances where, in a ordinary relationship breakdown, you would not - even if it is purely the other person's property. You stand the only chance of massively restricting contact between the other parent and their kids, now that implacable mothers are expected to cooperate or lose primary residence. If you lie, sanctions are pretty much never imposed because to cause more conflict and anger harms the children.

I also don't think I have ever seen any media attention given to invented claims of domestic violence, in sharp contrast to the huge publicity given to false rape claims. The attention, rightly, is on supporting victims.

Most people are decent and the vast majority of contact disputes are peaceably resolved. A significant minority are not, and in some cases allegations of abuse are made. Of those, many will have endured terrible abuse. Many such cases will have evidence - medical, social services, police reports. But some won't. Some of those will be because the woman just never told. Others will be because she is lying.

If you have a situation in which advantage necessarily has to accrue to one party if the other is abusive, you will have some seek to take advantage despite no abuse having accurred. That's just reality, just as it's the reality that some genuine victims will suffer even more because others aare lying. It's appalling on many levels.

In the case I know of, she alleged neglect and risk to the child as an excuse to block contact (such accusations are now in the C1A form alongside violence). Social Services investigated and categorically dismissed her complaints as without foundation. At that point, after a mediation session where she realised the mediator had spoken to SS and clarified that the truthful account was her exes and that she was not being honest, she changed solicitor and began alleging DV for the first time. One claim, as mentioned above, has witnesses to the contrary. Another, and he has an alibi. He also has a letter from CYPS confirming that she gave them information she knew to be untrue at the time she gave it. But the problem is the family courts crawl at a snail's pace and she is interfering with his relationship with his daughter to a huge degree. His chances of true shared care were excellent at the start, but to be honest I doubt they will be good at all by the time a final hearing occurs. Her lies are going to give her a tactical advantage because after the best part of a year she will be entrenched as the primary carer, with the father (previously a very hands on one) hardly knowing his own child. You can't hurt and unsettle the child, no matter what the mother has done, and what can you do therefore to punish a mother who is lying? You can't. That is a solid and tangible incentive to lie, and though most women would rather cut their own arms off than do that to their kids or indeed exes, in any group you are going to have a minority of utter shits. Women are not exempt. In redressing a terrible wrong you are going to create the temptation for those who have not been wronged to benefit from the redress. Pretending that isn't the case won't make it go away.

[Confuzled]

I should add that the really sick part is that the redress, in a context of true domestic violence, takes huge courage. Standing up to an abuser is a dangerous thing to do. I massively admire such women - and it's another reason I despise women who are using the system. If they're lying, then some perfectly normal bloke is not going to do anything except use the legal system. He's not going to threaten, harass or harm you. You can be a twat more or less with impunity... and the main people to suffer, other than your own kids, are those women at real risk and their kids, who may be disbelieved because a minority of other women are selfish, amoral witches. So in effect you are colluding with wife-beaters.

On every level it is unforgivable.