Suspect dh has a problem with alcohol and not sure what I can do (if anything?)

[galaxydunkedincoffee]

This is just to follow on as I asked a question on JesusWhatNext's thread and didn't want to take over that.

Basically I suspect dh has a drinking problem. He has a few drinks every day unless there is a reason he can't (not very often). Occasionally he drinks enough to pass out on the sofa (not that often - every other month / once a month?)

When I have tried to talk to him about it before, he hasn't really responded. However I've always said it in an indirect way (like 'maybe you need to think about your drinking habits?') and yesterday on JWN's thread, MIFLAW advised that I ask directly 'Why do you drink so much?' which I did and to which dh replied 'I don't drink that much'. He then went on to explain that different cultures have different attitudes to alcohol (he and I are from different countries) and that I am someone who always needs something to worry about so I have probably started worrying about his drinking since my exams have finished and so exam stress is over (actually I have tried to talk about his drinking before but am rubbish at that sort of thing and apparently haven't explained myself well enough - he didn't really say anything when I told him that).

It did feel like he was blaming me for making an issue out of nothing without actually saying it directly, but maybe I am over-analysing.

Should also say that I may sound like I am completely anti-alcohol but I do like the odd drink now and then and have done the standard student piss-ups pre-children. It just seems to be becoming more of an issue with me for some reason that I instantly tense up the moment I see him opening a can of beer or pouring a glass of wine when he gets in from work. He always offers me a drink too and gets antsy when I say no thank you (he jokes that 'oh that's right, you never like to drink beer with your husband, only ever your friends' - this is not true, I will occasionally have a beer or glass of wine with him, but only really at the weekend or every other weekend as I don't really feel like it often).

Sorry, this is a bit of a rubbish post. I've re-written it quite a few times and keep deleting it but it's something I can't stop thinking about so probably good to get off my chest.

[beingsetup]

It sounds like social drinking has gone too far. He is right in some countries drinking wine with food is normal, however this doesn't sound like a normal level of drinking.

I think you need to think about how to confront him......

[MIFLAW]

Classic warning signs:

"in other countries/cultures/times they drink/drank more/differently." This is the excuse I myself frequently used, including, on one memorable occasion, allowing a friend to twist my arm into drinking brandy in my morning coffee because "French lorry-drivers do it"! I would also "double up" - when I was in France, my excuse for drinking lots of beer (as well as my wine) was, "this is how we drink in England." Back in England, I would justify my wine intake (on top of my beer) with, "in France, even kids drink wine with meals, it's social." Utter bollocks - I was just a piss-artist.

People getting upset if you won't take a drink. Why would it bother them? I mean, if you just drink because you like it and someone else refuses a beer, then that's more beer for you, isn't it? How would you take it if he did this with biscuits? Or grapes? Or salt and vinegar crisps? The only other thing people do this with is fags and (occasionally) drugs and it is because they are worried about their image (and self-image) if they indulge alone. It is definitely NOT the mark of a happy, normal drinker.

Also do not feel that someone has to get falling down drunk every night to qualify as a problem drinker - lots of people are "top-up" drinkers and need it just to feel normal. And the more you drink the higher your tolerance (till the system breaks down) so actually getting tipsy gets harder and harder - you tend to switch from "normal" (for you) to shitfaced in the space of one or two drinks (especially if you are a quick drinker.)

[MIFLAW]

I still have no idea if French lorry drivers actually DO do this - apologies if anyone is a teetotal (or even moderate drinker) French lorry driver.

[noddyholder]

If it is bothering you and he is being defensive then that is a pretty good sign it is a problem.Maybe just say you feel it is becoming an issue and when he is ready you will be prepared to support him

[ByTheSea]

I could have written your post, so will be watching this thread.

[nursenight]

me too, my DH is also the same as this, he actually doesnt seem to get drunk very often at all now, but still drinks at least a bottle a night. im going to start to go to al-anon, they were helpful on the phone. sorry cant post more as at work.

[galaxydunkedincoffee]

Thanks for your posts.

I have no idea how to go about it / if there is anything that I can do? I also keep being torn between the thing of 'it's his life, he's an adult, his choice and who am I to dictate to him?' on the one hand and the fact that I am starting to feel resentment before he has even finished pouring the first drink on the other hand (I do not normally resent things like this - it is not because I want to control him, although it may sound like it) - it is starting to affect our relationship on that level.

Noddy - I did say last night that I thought it was becoming an issue. He said it wasn't and that I was just projecting my stress (and the other reasons mentioned). I'm not sure where to go from there?

[TheFutureMrsClooney]

LOL Miflaw, I'm sure there are many of them lurking on Mumsnet!

My nearly ex-DH was very similar. The more I tried to discuss it, the more secretive he became. He is not the stereotypical alcoholic who starts as soon as he wakes (as far as I know, but I don't know what to believe any more). He also says it's my problem because I don't drink much (by his standards). I would say he drinks beer and wine the way most people drink tea.

When we were still socialising together he'd drink huge amounts in company because I would be too embarrassed to object. He would pass out at dinner parties ("I was tired"), fall asleep on the host's loo, snore loudly on their sofa then complain that I didn't know how to enjoy myself.

I started to think he had a point until MIFLAW suggested AlAnon, where I met a few other people in the same position.

Is the marriage OK apart from that?

[MoominMags]

Hi Galaxy, just wanted to offer my support to you. As a 'problem drinker' (alcoholic!) myself I recognise a lot of myself in what your DH is saying. The unfortunate thing is that he needs to want to change.

Many, many alcoholics never drink in the morning (many do, of course). I always told myself that as long as I was not having vodka on my cornflakes I was OK!

I don't have many words of wisdom but reading what you have written makes me realise even more what I have put my family through these past years.

Thinking of you.

[noddyholder]

My dp hasn't drank in nearly 20 years.When he did he never drank in teh morning sometimes had days and weeks on the wagon and it was never about the quantity but what it did to him and his life.The stereotype media alcoholic is so far from the truth really.If things are becoming unmanageable then it is v likely its a problem.He does need to address it himself though and you mentioning it may hurt and make him defensive at first but you may have opened the door for him to tackle it when he is ready.

[MoominMags]

Couldn't agree more noddy. I would go for ages without a drink, then have a couple here and there and then it would finally end in a binge (that was my pattern, there are lots of different ones.)

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

The problem here is that he may not or ever want to address the real reasons as to why he is drinking to excess like he does. You do not want to spend the next 5-10 years of your life frankly waiting to see if he does have a light bulb moment or not re his ongoing drink problem.

I would not drink alcohol with your H at home, doing so is enabling behaviour and only gives you a false sense of control.

As it is affecting your life at home it is a problem. Also he seems to be in complete denial about his drinking and the amount he consumes (not uncommon with alcoholics/problem drinkers). The excuses are just that - excuses and deflect from his problem with alcohol.

Basically there is nothing you can yourself do to make him see there is a problem. All you can do here is help your own self and contacting Al-anon may be helpful to you. They also publish some helpful literature as you are also playing a role here in this ongoing merry go around of alcoholism. Many women to such men end up as their partner's enabler; covering up for their actions and or making excuses for them.

Also having a drunkard for a parent does the children no favours at all. You cannot fully protect them from all this no matter how much that is attempted.

You need to remember the 3cs re alcoholism:-

You did NOT cause this
You CANNOT control this
You CANNOT cure this

[noddyholder]

My dp always ended in a binge even when he was determined to only have 3 his 'magic' number!There is always hope though op some people just take time to see the light.My dp stopped drinking when we first got together when i was 5 months pregnant he decided in his wisdom that as we were settled and his life was so different that he could probably have 1 or 2 and be ok.I knew nothing about alcoholism at teh time and went along with it.For 2 weeks he had the odd beer here and there to try and be 'normal'(later admitted this was torture) and then went to a party without me and came home at 5 am smashed,he fell over and smashed his head and then fell asleep.next morning we had carpet fitters coming to do baby room and I got him up smiled sweetly at fitters let dp ay and as soon as they left I told him to go.No fuss no rows he just went.3 days later he was in AA which he did for ayear and he never looked back.I was v hard but I was pregnant and scared so felt strong.

[noddyholder]

pay

[MIFLAW]

Should add I was very rarely a morning drinker.

Though that's another thing to watch out for - the rationalisation.

See, I almost never got up and had a drink (it did happen but I could probably count the times on my hands, maybe even one hand - which isn't many times for a daily drinker.) But a lot of times I would wake up during the night (many heavy drinkers have poor-quality sleep and they also have a lot of worries), finish what was left in the bottle from when I had passed out, then go back to bed and sleep some more. Because this wasn't drinking on waking, I never considered it morning drinking, but very late night drinking - even though it tended to happen between 3 and 5 am!

So check your partner for rationalisation, too - anything that "isn't what it looks like" is probably EXACTLY what it looks like, but it doesn't suit him to see it (and have it seen) in those terms.

[galaxydunkedincoffee]

FutureMrsClooney - dh has passed out at dinner parties at friend's flats. One time before the main course. It is bloody embarrassing - I think on some level he still believes he is a 20 year-old student.

The marriage isn't great tbh. I suppose it depends on the definition of a good or bad marriage. We aren't violent and don't swear at each other. We don't call each other stupid etc. But I keep feeling that we seem to constantly be working against each other rather than with each other and every discussion we have, I feel like I need to work out my concrete argument and rationale beforehand and it is like going into a verbal battlefield. He disagrees with me and thinks our marriage is fine and that it is good to have differences of opinion and to discuss things. We did have some couple's counselling last year after me having tried to convince him for about a year before that - but it was just a few sessions. He was quite bad at doing the exercises so the counsellor said that made things a bit harder and we also had the added stress of moving to UK from abroad and arguments about that ended up taking over from the initial reason (i.e. us) - we spent 2 sessions trying to work out where to live!

MoominMags - thank you! You say you realise what you have put your family through, but I hope you also realise all the active, physical steps you are now taking to mend all that you can. I am sure your family truly appreciate all your effort and work and above all that you are prioritising them and your relationships with them over alcohol

Noddy - did you do or say anything for your dp to stop drinking when he did at the start of the pregnancy? Did he recognise that he was suddenly drinking too much and needed to settle down a bit? I admire you for asking him to leave when he came home smashed that time. It's not acceptable to pass out unconscious from drinking too much, is it? The next time dh does that, I would be within my rights to say that I do not want to live like that and I do not want our children to be exposed to that behaviour, wouldn't I? Sorry - it sounds silly asking things like that, but I just want to make sure I phrase it in a fair way that is reasonable and not overdramatic.

Attila - it's funny you should say that as I have been less and less inclined to have a drink with him (by that I mean a glass of red wine to his bottle as we have 2 small children so I need to stay 'on call' as it were). Since you say that though, I will actually now make a conscious decision not to have a drink with him rather than just because I don't feel like it. You are right about the children. Until now, it's been hard to see the situation for what it is and I guess I have been focussing on the wrong things like that he doesn't get violent when drunk. Also it's one of things on a spectrum so an adult having a few drinks with dinner - ok, adult getting pissed when on a night out - well that's their decision and so on. Suddenly I am now starting to realise that I am with a grown man who every now and then drinks too much at home and passes out on the sofa. I don't know why I didn't question before, the fact that this man is one of the daily role models for our children?

MIFLAW - thanks always for your posts. I think rationalisation also comes into the spectrum thing, also on my part. It's not a nice realisation but I think on some level I have been telling myself that he's the adult, his decision, we all make mistakes, nobody's perfect, who am I to judge him and have not really thought about the fact that I have been rationalising his behaviour to myself and enabling him to continue.

Thank you all so much for your posts. I feel bad because this thread is going behind dh's back (I haven't told him about this thread) and even though I have name changed, it's still our personal lives that I am talking about on a public forum. But it is really helping to get some outside perspective on this from people who have nothing to do with us and have no personal interests in defending / bashing either of us, if that makes sense. I just need to work out what to do next - and digest a bit more what has already been said.

[galaxydunkedincoffee]

ByTheSea and nursenight - did you speak either of your partner's about it at all? What did they say?

[ByTheSea]

I have tried to speak to him before but doesn't see a problem. He never seems drunk, but I would be passed out if I drank what he does on a daily basis. It is just a slow and steady consumption. He justifies it as having a glass of wine with a meal, but once he starts at lunch, he has a glass going right til bedtime. It wasn't so bad before, but we have been badly hit by the economy, and while I am cutting back on everything, he has just switched to the cheapest possible (yet still drinkable) wine. He also uses the 'cultural' argument too (he's originally from NE England and I'm originally from the US). He doesn't drive either, so I am always the designated driver. I do drink occasionally, mostly socially and not often at home, as I don't need the empty calories.

[TheFutureMrsClooney]

Galaxy, I think you are me ten years ago.

I tried again and again to get him to face our problems (not just his drinking).

We are now separating (against his will as he says he is happy) after 24 years of marriage. I feel as if a huge weight has been lifted. I believe I have done everything I can to save him and my marriage but accept he is beyond my help. I have been lucky his drinking has stayed at the same level rather than escalating.

How about showing him this thread?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

galaxy

Your H's primary relationship now is with drink. Everything and everyone else around them now comes a dim and distant second. Alcohol is truly a cruel mistress.

Many women who have problem drinkers/alcoholics in their lives keep it quiet because of their perceived feelings of fear, embarrassment and shame felt by the non alcoholic (these feelings are totally misplaced by the way, Al-anon are helpful). I would think some of your friends do know of your H's drink problem but do not say anything to you for fear of upsetting you further/thinking its not their business.

Your H's behaviour is affecting his family and your family life to its detriment and from what you write he does not want to address his drink problem, he has not even admitted he has a problem!. He may NEVER do so; you certainly don't want to spend the next 5-10 years of your life waiting to find out if he has an epiphany. This does affect the children as well in all sorts of ways; it does not do them any good at all to have a drunkard parent in their lives. Try as you might as well they see it in ways you do not, you cannot fully protect them from these particular horrors.

You may find talking to Al-anon helpful becuase all you'll get from your H on his drinking is stonewalling of the problem and complete denial of it (also denial is a powerful force). These people will also find any excuse or occasion to drink.

You are also caught up on the merry go around that is alcoholism; infact anyone connected with the alcoholic is. Your role in this is one of enabler - you shield these people from the consequences of their actions; it neither helps you or them.

Please speak to Al-anon and read their literature. I will put up Al-anon's details for you (Bythesea that is for you as well).

The 3cs re alcoholism:-

You did NOT cause this
You CANNOT control this
You CANNOT cure this

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Al-Anon Family Groups UK & Eire
61 Great Dover Street, London SE1 4YF

Confidential Helpline 020 7403 0888
(Helpline available 10 am - 10 pm, 365 days a year)

Fax: 020 7378 9910
Email: [email protected]

Galaxy,

Alcoholism is a family disease in that it affects you all. You need help and support.
BTW showing him this thread would be a waste of time. You talking to him has not worked and it won't work because he does not want to hear what you are saying. A thread certainly won't either.

Unless he wants to admit to having a drink problem there is nothing you can do to help him. All you can do is help your own self and your kids (Al-anon is a good starting point for you).

[wifyhome]

i could write this myself.. my dhs drinking is really bothering me, he usually drinks weekends only starting with bottle of vodka on fri night
i heard the 'we drink like this in england' this morning (in not english) and just could not belive this is hes excuse
hes been recently elected to local goverment so another reason not to behave like he does when he goes out but even that doesnt stop him..it even got worse
i said i had enough and he said hell stop but ive heard this before..
i dont think i can go on like this
moday to friday hes nice as pie but come weekend im in limbo, we have joint finances which bugs me also..hes the main earner and every time i spend money he moans ( even things for ds) but its ok to spend money in the pub?
i know im not paranoid..i even heard' i dont know how you put up with this' from his childhood sweethart..
not mentioning hes health..

what to do? i called Al-Anon and there is meeting im planning to go to

[ohgrowupwoman]

I had a lightbulb moment when I read on the Al-Anon website (I think) that when a partner's drinking bothers you then it is a problem. I was married to a functioning alcoholic. He held down a responsible job despite lots of boozing (swift pint or three at lunchtime - I think men get away with this more easily) plus lots on the way home. We were always short of money because he spent so much on booze. If we shared some wine (all I drink really) then I would be legless after half a bottle (two pregnancies and my tolerance is really low). I always get a hangover if I have more than one glass. He never did, ever. He used to drink until he passed out tho' (on the toilet once - nice! )

I totally agree with other posters that Al-Anon is a good resource to try and understand what you can and can't do. For me, realising that his need for alcohol was more important to him than his wife and kids made me realise he had to go.

Eventually, I decided it was much better for the DCs to grow up without a resident alcoholic parent than with. We still have no money but that is because I am in a badly paid job, not because daddy is p*&ssing it away in the pub . I am not anti alcohol. I love wine and actually got a bit drunk at a party last weekend - but I usually drink very little (so it does not take much to make me rather giggly and talkative )

If you really love your H then maybe you can make something work. I wish you luck