A continuation of Inlaw problems. Please help. (long, sorry).

[mampam]

It's such a complicated situation that I don't really know where to start. I've posted a few times before about this situation. I'll just give a quick lowdown of what has happened in the past:

DH and I used to live next door to his parents in a house rented to us by them. Right from the start it was clear that they didn't really want me (and my dc's) there, they just wanted it to be the three of them together (them and dh) and as a result of this I was frequently ignored and excluded where ever possible. MIL especially was quite nasty to me at times and life was quite tough for me then. It was certainly the darkest time of my life with things getting worse when dh and I announced our engagement, which his mother made it perfectly clear that she was not happy about. The climax of that situation being FIL storming into our house shouting at me and calling me names and saying some nasty things about my dc's.

We moved out and didn't really have much to do with them between then and our wedding. The wedding day arrives and FIL and MIL both ignored me and my parents all day and FIL wouldn't even stand near me to have photo's taken (stood about 3 foot away, which does make very odd looking wedding pictures!!).

Couple of weeks after wedding MIL's father died. We went to the funeral and MIL ignored DH the whole time and wouldn't even look at him. Quite obviously because I was there with him.

DH then wrote a letter to his parents explaining why he was cross with them and how hurt he felt by their behaviour. They wrote back saying "It was stupid to think that we could all live together like the Waltons". No word of an apology.

So things carried on as they were, with DH not having anything to do with them and then a letter arrives from his grandparents(paternal) saying things like "I won't rest until my dying day" and basically putting DH on a major guilt trip. Then at the bottom was a section addressed to me basically saying that I am DH's one true love but surely I could spare some of that love for the rest of his family. So as per usual it's all my fault!!

DH wrote a letter back listing the reasons why he wasn't speaking to his parents (something he'd kept tight lipped about until that point) and pointing out to them that he was the one who had made that decision, not me as they were implying. He said to them that all he wanted from his parents was a sincere apology and a promise to accept me as his wife.

A few months passed and on our wedding anniversary there was a 'happy 1st wedding anniversary' advert in our local paper from them. WTF!! They weren't even happy for us on the wedding day, and I was still being ignored if I passed them in the car or in the street. (I'd crossed over the road in our local town and they were on the side I was crossing to. MIL had tried to quickly turn around and walk back in the opposite direction).

DH got a text message from his mother asking how he was. He had no credit on his phone so couldn't reply. A few minutes later he had another text from her saying "we're both fine thanx for asking". DH was fuming when he got home. He emailed her a few days later saying how dare she send him a sarcastic text as she wasn't really in any position to get on her high horse after all the things she's done. He then ended it by saying if she was never going to apologise for all the things that have happened then just to leave him alone. An email came back and all it said on it was "sorry". She left a message on his phone too and said" at least I've got your attention now. I am sorry for whatever".

DH didn't really consider this a sincere apology seeing as she was only "sorry for whatever" so just ignored it.

Two days before Christmas MIL turned up at DH's work with a christmas present for the dc's (on the tags were just their names not who the presents were from) and an envelope for DH and I. DH was pissed off when he came home as his mother had put him in an awkward position in front of his work colleagues. He hadn't wanted to accept the presents but knew if he didn't she would cause a real scene in front of his colleagues and that would be playing right into her hands (by playing the victim). So after work he went to their house to give the presents back as he didn't feel right about taking gifts from them seeing as they are not on friendly terms plus I think he wanted to prove a point that he doesn't want or need anything from them. He knocked at the door but got no answer so left them on the doorstep.

Yesterday he got an email from his grandfather. I find this very bizaar. He'd drawn a sketch showing FIL comforting MIL with the captions "oh look fil he has brought the presents back" "don't cry MIL there's nothing more we can do" then there's a sketch showing a foot kicking someone in the privates "I feel I have been kicked in the groin by our own son". And then underneath it says "Grandmother and I find it hard to believe you did this. Why involve Mampams children? Or was it Mampam who made you take their presents back?" So yet again it is all my fault. Underneath the sketches was a photograph of dh and FIL swimming and laughing about something. Above it is written " this is the grandson I want to remember".

DH's immediate reaction was to email back and tell his grandfather to off and that he doesn't want to have anything to do with him again. I told him to sleep on it. The thing is that inlaws play the victims so well especially MIL. All this present giving and the announcement in the paper is all for show, so they can turn around and say 'look we've done all this and our son still won't talk to us'. All they've had to do was say 'sorry for the way we've behaved. Can we start again?' but their stubborn pride obviously won't let them do that. But surely they're only child is worth more to them than foolish pride? I can't even begin to imagine how this makes DH feel.

Having slept on it DH still feels the same way. He doesn't want to have anything to do with his parents again and feels that even if they did say sorry now that its too late. Too much has happened. He also doesn't want to have anything to do with his grandparents either especially when they're acting like this, trying to make him feel guilty and blaming everything on me. I wish I could just make them see how all of this has affected DH. How hurt he's been feeling. Instead all they can see is what has been fed to them by inlaws who have made themselves out to be the victims in all of this, and it's as if DH is lying to them when he's told them of all the hurtful things his parents have done.

Please, on behalf of DH does anyone have any idea of what to put in an email to his grandfather to end this nonsense once and for all and to just make him see things a little from DH's point of view??

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far.

[pooka]

IT does sound like a nightmare.

I do think that taking the presents back was the wrong thing to do. The giving of the presents followed on from what was admittedly a cack-handed apology, but one that I think you should have taken on face value. In wanting his parents to tweak and tweak the apology until it is acceptably contrite I think your DH has lost the moral high ground - would have been more sensible to just say "your apology for x, y and z has been accepted. We will speak no more of it and hope that all of it can be put behind us".

Just my opinion though.

I think that your DH needs to talk to his parents again, but perhaps an email to grandfather could suggest how hurt he is by the interference, but that he (DH) is trying to work out how to mend the relationship when x, y and z was so hurtful to him (and you).

[TheChristmasArmadillo]

I wouldn't send anything beyond 'we request that you do not contact us again' and ignore any further communications from them.

I appreciate that he wants them to say 'I understand and I'm sorry' but it doesn't look like that is going to happen and any further refusals from them to acknowledge the hurt they have caused will only cause your dh more pain.

It's a horrible situation.

[TisTheSeasonToBeSunny]

Message withdrawn

[mampam]

Pooka, I understand what you are trying to say but I don't think that even after an apology we could just put it all behind us. Too much has gone on and there's now too much water under the bridge or so to speak. DH has realised that he is NEVER going to get the apology he wants and if he did feels it is too late.

I think he feels it is just the principle of the matter. His parents have always been very controlling of him and if he gives in to his principles or his morals and accepts the half baked apology then they have won. They will have ground him down as always until he gives in and they have got what they want. Does that make any sense to you?

I do feel now that by DH taking the presents back that it was the wrong thing to do because it has given inlaws more ground on which to play the victims again.

I don't think that Dh is out to get an apology anymore I think he he is out to get them all to just leave him alone to get on with his life. He just wants to do it in a way that will give them all something to think about, maybe that will make them feel a guilty for a change and he will probably feel alot better for doing so.

[mampam]

Tistheseason, perhaps you are right. To them DH's retaliation does seem to be better than no reply at all. It won't stop there though they will just keep on hounding and hounding. Maybe changing email addresses and phone numbers might be in order.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Do not retaliate or respond in kind at all to these toxic people; no good will come of it and you will be made to look like the bad guys again. The drawings in themselves are particularly nasty and full of emotional blackmail. If an apology is sought you will not receive one. You will never receive an apology. Toxic people do not say sorry and do not play by the "rules" governing normal healthy family relations. They are dysfunctional and only they can address the root causes of that dysfunction. Which btw they don't either.

I do not advocate cutting off family easily and that action in itself is fraught with emotional difficult but in this instance that action is more than justified. These people will bring nothing but pain in to your lives.

WOuld suggest your DH reads "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. You could also read "Toxic Inlaws" written by the same author. Both are good as a starting point.

Living well is the best revenge here; don't get further drawn into their game.

[piscesmoon]

I would go for a dignfied silence.

[pooka]

I do see where you're coming from. What a horrible situation it is.

The returnign of the presents does seem to have given them leverage - an "in" almost, at least in terms of allowing them to play the victim role.

What do you think that they really really want from all this - in your post you say that if your dh gives in, they will have won and got what they wanted. I'm just wondering what that is? Would it help at all to write a list. It's jsut if their list would include you and your dcs out of the picture and everythign back as it was, well you and your dh know that that is not going to happen, and they will never get what they want, will they. They will never win.

If the list of what they really want is for you to accept christmas presents and be pleasant, then it is up to you whether you cooperate with that wish. But it may be that on your list of things they want, that that wouldn't really be on it, so accepting the presents and being pleasant wouldn't be giving them what they want, if you see what I mean (god, sounds very machiavellian and complicated so well done if you made head or tail of it!).

They do sound awful. Either really mean or very clumsy in trying to make amends. I do tend to try and see the good in people though, so would rather (as I expect you would) choose to believe the latter.

The cartoon sending grandpa does need to be told to keep nose out. In the politest of tones. I do find it rather strange that he would need to draw a series of cartoons to show his take on the situation. Bizarre

[inlawoutlaw]

I sympathise , ive had similar horrible treatment for years and even now MIL is threatening to cut Dh out of her will if he doesnt divorce me ( hence the name !)

It sounds lke your DH needs to accept that his parents are as they are, unlikeley to change and decide if he wants them in his life or not , and if so to what extent.

Sadly my in laws are like this ,Mil is mad and gradfather was too, He spent years dominating and manipulating MIL and she in turn attempts to do the same to us.

Get your DH to change his email adress or block them so he doesnt have to read any more poisenous crap.

[mampam]

I think DH was damned no matter what he did with those presents. Giving them back has given them more grounds on which to play the victims to other members of their family but by keeping them I think it would have had the same effect. Kind of 'we even gave them Christmas presents but they still won't have have anything to do with us'.

It's very hard to explain what they are like but I'll give it a go.
Pooka I do try to see the good in everyone as I did for a long time with the inlaws only to keep getting knocked down by them. When we lived next door to them they did a very good job of excluding me, pushing me out and making it clear that I was not welcome. I was made to feel like a spare part, like I was worthless. MIL would even stand having lengthy polite conversations with my exH when he came to pick up dc's, but she would barely ever talk to me. Their one sole aim is to come between DH and I and I do not believe that that has changed.

They were very controlling of DH and this made it very hard for him to stand up to them in the past. They have used this to their full advantage too like when FIL came around shouting at me. He knew that DH wouldn't stand up to him or stop him, instead DH just sat there with his head in his hands whilst FIL let rip and was calling me all sorts of names.

I have just ordered us a copy of 'Toxic Parents' but can't seem to get a copy of 'Toxic Inlaws'. I can remember reading another thread about toxic inlaws and someone said something about the things they will make up to get attention. Well when inlaws knew we were moving out of the house they rented us MIL suddenly developed a potential heart condition (never heard a thing about it since), FIL developed something wrong with his leg that was so bad that he might have had to have it amputated (again no more said about it since). More recently FIL has told DH's boss (knowing boss would tell DH) that he has a lump on his back and was having to go straight to hospital about it. And Mil has told distant relatives of theirs (knowing that dh is in contact with them) that she has had a nervous breakdown and has been in and out of hospital several times and all she does is sit at home and drink and FIL doesn't talk anymore he just sits and stares into space.

I find all of this very hard to believe as a) we live in a very rural community where everybody knows everybody elses business and you hear everything on the grapevine.
b)seeing as grandparents like to try and make DH feel guilty all the time, this would have been a great opportunity for them which I'm sure they wouldn't have missed.

I don't know, this whole thing is getting me down. I haven't slept a wink for the past 2 nights because I'm thinking about it all the time, I feel tearful. I just feel so bad that DH has lost his family and it's all because they don't like me.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"I just feel so bad that DH has lost his family and it's all because they don't like me".

These ILs of yours are completely nasty and they have no intention to change their ways. People who thankfully do not come from toxic families often do not realise what sort of things these damaged people are capable of doing. Your ILs behaviours are typically toxic and those of your MIL post you leaving their rented house is again typical self serving attention seeking me, me, me toxic type behaviours.

These problems are often generational in nature as well. Look at the grandfather's actions for instance.

You need to realise that your H's family were controlling and toxic long before you came on the scene. None of this is your fault, you need to realise that.

Your ILs chose to act as they have done, no-one forced them to act like this. Its NOT your fault this has happened and they would have acted the same regardless of whom your H married. They chose to and continue to behave in such an appalling toxic manner.

Have a look at the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread. Loads of stuff on there and I would urge you to post there as well.

[mampam]

Thanx Attila I will definitely check out the stately homes thread.

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of 'Toxic Parents'? Thought I'd ordered it this morning with Waterstones but they sent an email saying that they can't get it from the publishers.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

www.amazon.co.uk?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 have both Toxic Parents and Toxic Inlaws.

[cyteen]

not really much to add to the sterling advice already given. but the fact that the grandparents simply accept whatever your ILs tell them without even making an attempt to find out the other side of the story from your DH suggests that they are not exactly coming from a neutral position, and thus emailing them is unlikely to bring anything other than more complications and upset.

i know it's no consolation but they all sound quite, quite mad. try not to waste time feeling guilty over something that is their doing, not yours, and just concentrate on helping your DH enjoy the family life he has chosen with you