Should I say something about her daughter's behaviour?

[CailinDana]

I have just moved to a new area and have made a couple of new friends. One in particular, let's call her S, is lovely and I have spent quite a bit of time with her over the last couple of months. However, there is a problem with her DD, let's call her M (3.5). She is a lovely child, and clearly very bright but her behaviour can be awful. On Monday we were at a baby group and her daughter poked her fingers in the eyes of a new child who had just started at the group. The mother of said child instinctively shouted "No!" and M got a fright and ran to S crying. S gave her a mild telling off, along the lines of "try to be gentle" or something equally vague and that was the end of it. The new mother was mortified, thinking she had put her foot in it but I made sure later to reassure her that I felt her reaction was normal as M could really have hurt her little one. At various other stages during the playgroup, M slapped and knocked over other children, all the time looking over her shoulder hoping for a reaction. She did it a couple of times to my DS but I have no qualms about telling her not to do it and she seems to listen to me. S's only reaction was forcing her to say sorry and making empty threats. This is has been a problem practically every time I've been out with S and it's really getting on my nerves.

To give some background, S's husband works away and so S has to look after two children on her own, one of whom is only 3 months old. She seems to lack confidence and doesn't assert herself around others so that's a problem with her DD. It seems clear to me that her DD is very switched on and is in need of some positive attention but is attracting negative attention as a substitute for that. If she is given positive attention she truly is lovely. I think she would respond really well to some structured discipline and as a result S's life would be a hell of a lot easier, others wouldn't get so annoyed about being around her and her DD and I would be more likely to maintain the friendship with her.

So knowing all this, should I have a talk with her? I am afraid that if I do she'll get very upset as she already has a lot on her plate. But if I don't I'm not sure I can maintain the friendship - I really do worry her DD will hurt my DS.

[bejeezus]

Had a very very similar situation. I decided to talk to my friend. It made our friendship very uncomfortable for a number of years.
I found it hard to be around them because I felt I was teaching my daughter that it was ok to have friends that physically attacked her and weren't reprimanded for it.

Lol...sorry that's not really helpful is it? Umm...we are close again now, 4 years later! I think, you aren't going to be able to keep spending time with her if you don't say something, so its worth a go?

[CailinDana]

I suppose so bejeezus. What surprises me is that she doesn't seem to mind other people telling her daughter off, in fact I've already had a few stern words with her in my friend's earshot. As far as I can tell my friend had a pretty shit childhood and I feel like she's just a bit at sea with the whole parenting thing. I'm no expert but I feel like I could really help her get her DD back on track, I just don't want to upset my friend and make her feel like I expect her to change in order to be friends with me. That said I will not tolerate her DD jumping on my DS and slapping him

[TravellerForEver]

Could you do it by telling about a 'friend' who as ds or a dd that has a very similar problem than she has with her dd?
So not telling her directly but in a way that should make her think about what is going on?

Another option as you say she is on her own with 2 young children: See if she would appreciate the help of Homestart so she can spend time with her dd wo worrying about the little one, or just having a rest and a bit of time for herself? Perhaps that would be enough to take her head out of the water and ease things.

[CailinDana]

Perhaps Traveller, although I'm not sure she really sees the problem clearly. When her DD poked that poor child's eyes at the group my friend went on about how her DD is very bright (which she is to be fair) and how she "loves everyone and gets a bit overexcited." That's just bollocks, it's clear that the DD intentionally went and poked the poor baby in the eyes for a reaction. So I'm not sure she'd get it if I wasn't direct about it. I don't think she realises either how uncomfortable her DD's behaviour makes other people and how it pushes people away from her. It's a shame really :(

[kerala]

Sounds like she might actually be receptive to abit of advice and it sounds from your posts as if you would deliver a difficult message really well and sensitively.

Do you have a child of similar age who is on the receiving end of the bad behaviour? I only say that because I was in a similar situation when DD was 3.5 but my DD was suffering at the hands of my friends DD so we had to stop seeing them. I realised I was essentially putting my friendship above DDs needs inviting a child to the house who would consistently hurt DD verbally and physically because I enjoyed the company of the mother. That said this friend is a great mother and has put the work in her DD now 5 is a lovely sparky girl who behaves very well - though DD is still wary of her.

[kerala]

Sorry I see you do have a DS. I would be careful to ensure that I prioritised him if I were you. I still feel guilty that I didnt stop seeing the friend I mentioned sooner - DD was confused as to why a child that was so mean kept being invited to our house .

[alarkaspree]

I have been in a very similar situation in the past. I had a friend whose son was very boisterous, and she was incredibly wishy-washy in her approach to discipline. People in the neighbourhood avoided her and her son because their children didn't want to play with him.

I am ashamed to say I did nothing about it, but in due course her ds's teachers at preschool got shirty about his behaviour, he started having speech therapy and she learned some techniques for dealing with him from the SALT, and now he is the politest child I have ever come across.

So this is not very helpful really - I think the answer is that someone (probably several people) needs to tell your friend that she needs to be firmer about correcting her dd's behaviour, but it's very likely that your relationship with her will suffer if it's you. If you think your friendship with her will suffer anyway, it really would be kind in the long run to let her know why.

[CailinDana]

That's what I'm thinking kerala, that I should stop seeing her for DS's sake as he is only 10 months and she has slapped him and jumped on him back as he was crawling around. For the most part I can give her a sharp look or tell her to stop but it makes being around her very stressful as I'm really worried she will properly hurt DS. It amazes me that she doesn't come down harder on her about the aggressive behaviour and I am worried that one day she really will hurt another child and there might be hell to pay.

I think I might just ask her how she's getting on with her DD and try to subtly bring up the subject of behaviour. One problem is that she puts too much responsibility on her DD - she expects her to regulate her own behaviour and doesn't give her any boundaries or guidelines. I do for sorry for the DD as I feel she's a bit lost and sad and she really could be such a great kid with the right guidance.

[toptramp]

I'm in a very similar situation but my dd is the one who attacks my friend's dd. It started when they were tiny and dd is 3 now. It has made our frienship strained. I shout at dd loudly, take toys off her, make her apologise and seperate them but I think my friend thinks that is too wishy washy. If a kid was hitting my dd I'd want to stangle them.
I am not going to hit my dd as punishment as this is highly hypocritical, nor am I going to shut her in her room at the age of 3. The only solution in my opinion is just to stop hanging out, especially at this very young when they just do not get sharing, social niceties and not bullying etc. Very sad but if one is dominant over the other, chances are the perpetrators are not in the least bit sorry.
I have started explaining to dd the importance of being nice and i hope she will get it at 3. I also felt the pressure to be really hard on dd in order to please my friend (and teach her right from wrong) but as her mum I wasn't going to be as harsh as my friend would probably like me to be because she is so little etc.
What discipline do you guys suggest? I probably need help myself.

[toptramp]

strangle sorry

[BadRoly]

Perhaps your friend is feeling overwhelmed and is struggling and has no idea what to do. You say her husband is away a lot and she also has a 3mthd old? I suggest that she is knackered and has not got the energy to deal with her dd. I know I risk being flamed as there are many in the same boat but everyone is different. If you were my friend, I would appreciate it if you waited for the right oppurtunity to ask if I was ok. Maybe approach it by saying that M seems to be a bit of a handful at the moment, is S managing ok with her and the baby?

[toptramp]

I also did the naughty step but in retrospect dd wasn't sorry for her bullying behaviour.

[bejeezus]

Top tramp- I think the discipline you are using sounds appropriate- my friend never did any of that, just had a chat with her child and gave her a cuddle! I think if they are still attacking, I would like to see the child taken home. I think they learn pretty quickly then! Or obviously if the get together is in their house, then the guest leaves?

[bejeezus]

It's a really tough situation. I agree with kerala though-prioritize your ds over your friendship, I also wish I had done that sooner. In my experience, the mum could NOT see the problem and wad not receptive to help despite a fair few parents having a word

[toptramp]

I do cuddle my dd after bollocking her; is that wrong?

[bejeezus]

Who knows what is right and wrong?! Not I

There is a school of thought isn't there that says you shouldn't withhold affection as punishment BUT it ain't really withholding as you don't cuddle your children constantly. I personally wouldn't cuddle my ddi immediately after she had been told off. It's a horrid feeling being told off and as much as I want to alleviate it, I think its important for her to digest the emotions and thoughts a bit. I would probably go in for a hug when the moment had passed and she had started to play again or whatever

[PelvicF1oorOfSteel]

My DS1 (3) went through an awful phase when DS2 was a little baby, he would go for DS2 or any child of a similar size to DS2 - it feels absolutely awful when your child is not just attacking other children, but deliberately going for smaller ones. There is a good chance that M is just going through a phase and it's due to jealousy of the new baby/lack of attention.

I had to take a zero-tolerance approach with DS1 because I couldn't leave him alone with DS2 for a second, he got 1 warning and then straight to his room or strapped in the buggy if we were out (I would have used naughty step but he wouldn't stay there he had to be somewhere he couldn't get out of). I combined that with loads of praise and attention when he was being nice and rewards for good behaviour. The other thing I tried to do was make time to spend 1 to 1 with him. This is probably really difficult for S if she's on her own, is there any way you could offer to take her 3 month old for an hour so her and M can do something on their own?

Does M go to preschool? I think this was a civilising influence on DS1, also it's a time when you could meet S and baby without M. Maybe phrase it that you worry about a 3yo being bored by the babies if you don't want to discuss M's behaviour directly.

[CailinDana]

Thanks for your input guys. I do definitely think she is knackered - she puts a brave face on it but her little one is still feeding every 2-3 hours at night so she's dealing with two kids on her own with very little sleep. She is a sweet kind woman and I would really like to be friends with her so I think it might be worth having a word. I honestly think if she marshalled what little energy she has and just tackles the behaviour head on her DD is so bright that it would work very quickly. I think the poor DD really misses her dad and is jealous of the baby so there's a lot going on for her. She needs a bit of guidance and loads of attention to get her back on track I think. I took her out to the park with my DS one afternoon to give S a break and she was absolutely great - was really gentle with my DS (under my instruction) and listened to every word I said. It just shows how well she can behave given a chance.

WRT your dd toptramp I would say that you have to be very very firm but you may not agree. In my opinion any aggressive behaviour shouldn't be tolerated in a child over 2 and I think at that age providing warnings and consequences is very effective but you have to be totally consistent. No empty threats, no wishy-washy warnings, just "No hitting or we'll stop playing," and then the next hit you remove your child from the situation. I think the naughty step is a bit much for a two year old but can work from age 3 upwards. I can see how you think you're being harsh but in fact I think it's worse to not teach your child her behaviour is unacceptable. I would hate for anyone to avoid my DS because I haven't taught him how to behave. IME (I used to a developmental psychologist) children around 2/3 are starting to develop social skills but they easily get things wrong and they quickly learn what gets them what they want. If your dd learns "I hit, mummy notices, says something that means nothing and then gives me a cuddle" then of course she's going to carry on doing it. If she learns "I hit, mummy tells me I'll stop playing, I hit again and then I am put in a completely boring situation with no attention" then she'll stop doing it as it achieves nothing for her. Your DD is looking to you to manage social situations for her. Leaving her to it and letting her get it wrong over and over isn't fair really.

[kerala]

Being aggressive to another child or adult from 2.5/3 ish onwards is totally totally unacceptable and requires the parent to do something full on. Not wishy washy or forced apology or cuddle . Having observed the parents I hang out with over the last few years normally the offending child is told off verbally calmly but firmly then put in a porch/hallway for a few minutes. Basically removed from the fun so they learn that the consequence of being aggressive is pretty rubbish for them.

For a drastic awful incident (as sometimes happens) the parent calmly explains to child what they did is wrong and they go home there and then. Playdate over. I have seen this done over and over again in our loose group of friends and all the parents that have done this now have great kids who wouldnt dream of hitting or biting. You have to act not only to socialise your child - its not fair on them if you dont teach them how to be accepted socially - but you have to show the victim child and their parents that you take it seriously. When DD2 aged 3 saw a boy belt another at pre school she turned to me and said "his mummy needs to put him in the porch"