Downstairs neighbour wants to extend...

[msfreud]

I own a flat in a Victorian house converted into three flats. I used to live there but have just moved away two weeks ago and will get tenants in ASAP. The middle flat is also tenanted. The three of us owners share the freehold.

The ground floor flat was sold last December and the new owners want to extend their flat into their back garden to create a 3 bed flat with a bigger kitchen (all flats are currently approx the same size - 2 beds).

They've already done a lot of disruptive, noisy work to the flat (including sanding their floorboards which is against the lease - lease says you need to have carpets - and their footsteps are now audible throughout the house). They've never apologised for any disruption or in any way tried to be considerate to neighbours. The only access to their flat/garden is through the shared front door.

I've just found out it's now a requirement to tell any prospective tenants about upcoming works affecting the property or nearby properties. The ground floor owners recently got planning permission and have said they would start the work in January and it would go on for 3 months.

Now I feel like tenants will be put off if I tell them because who wants to live above massive building works for 3 months when there's no gain for them? Also in January when it's cold - having the front door open for their workmen will make the whole house cold. There's also a part of me that finds the ground floor owners really annoying and so I want to refuse freeholders consent for that reason and not let them extend. I guess I feel annoyed they moved in knowing they wanted to extend and never asked us (other freeholders) at the outset. (Who buys a flat just to extend it anyway, why not buy one the right size? I know they paid £££lots for the flat anyway, would have got a house for just £20k more 10 minutes further out!) But that would probably be very mean of me...

Also not sure if their ugly, big extension in the garden would affect the value of my flat... or if there's any risk that the building works will affect the foundations of the building or cause other damage. It's so complicated.

Has anyone lived in a flat when the flat below was being extended? How was it? I'm also wondering if there's anything I can ask from them to minimise the disruption (but is that even possible?). Has anyone owned a share of freehold and denied other owners an extension they wanted, for that matter?

[Soonish]

Right, you need to get building regs involved. Have they already? I imagine they may have done in order to get PP but if not, or even if so, you need to consult the local building control team (accessed via city council) and talk to them about how it is going to affect the structure of the building.

They will either be able to reassure you (perhaps for a smallish fee) or they will be onto any potential problems.

Have you considered selling up? I think I would - that way the person buying it will know if it's what they want, rather than as you say a tenant with no gain from the works.

[LondonGirl83]

Planning permission is entirely separate from building regs. You can have either one without the other.

Before work starts plans should be submitted to building regs for approval. Many builders wait for sign off unless the job is very simple. From submission 6 weeks is typical for sign off on the plans. Your neighbours may not be set that stage yet and some builders use non-council building reg firms for inspections.

Ask your neighbours if the have engineer drawings yet and if they have been submitted.

Lots of people buy homes with the intention of extending them / improving them and yes it would be mean to withhold freehold consent if they go through all the appropriate steps to ensure the work is safe.

You should insist they pay the extra premium on your building insurance during the build, take photos together of your house before work starts so you have a clear basis for compensation and insist that the builder they use is fully insured

[msfreud]

I really can't sell up because I need the income from it. (Small mortgage, v good rent as it's a desirable area in London.)

I don't think they have building regs yet. The owner is an architect (but not a domestic property one, more like planning new areas etc.) and he is being a bit cocky about how there's no need to get an outside view on the drawings because he works for a firm of architects. The 3rd owner/freeholder asked about this in emails previously and basically we never got a very satisfactory answer.

What about the huge disruption to my tenants? Or even not being able to get good tenants because no one wants to move somewhere that's going to have all that disruption?

[msfreud]

Also surely it would sell for less than top market value at the moment with this big disruption looming on the horizon, given there would be no gain for the owner of my flat anyway, just disruption and an ugly flat roof to look at where there was previously a garden!

[EarthWindAnd9]

I've recently move out of my top floor flat and my downstairs neighbour had an extension, it was AWFUL living there while it was being done, but the builders were dirty, rude and inconsiderate. Work was also done at a similar time of year, started in Jan, supposed to take 3 months but actually finished at the end of May. However, I think some people won't mind living there, we had tenants move into another flat in the building halfway through the building work and they didn't seem to mind. You might have to offer a temporary rent reduction while the work is going on? Could you get your neighbour to agree to reimburse you the reduction in rent if the works overrun? I think that unfortunately this is just something you have to put up with in London.

[Sunflowersareblue]

You need to see if it will down value your flat. It probably will if your garden view is removed. Whose is the garden? Can you refuse to allow it? If so, I would.

[LondonGirl83]

Even if they are an architect, they will need engineering drawings down by an qualified structural engineer that will be submitted to building control.

Ask for the engineering drawings and if they don't have them, ask who will be doing them-- some builders have engineers on staff and prefer to have their engineers prepare the drawings so don't be alarmed if they haven't got them yet. However, insist that they must be provided to you and submitted to building control before they start any work as a condition of your granting freehold consent.

If you are concerned about losing long term value as a few estate agents if they think the plans are going to harm value. Its unlikely as ground floor extensions in London are very common The EA might suggest some changes though that you could put to the freeholder if what they are planning is really an eyesore.

I've been in a share of freehold and it only works if everyone makes an effort to be reasonable. Unreasonably withholding consent for their extension will only make your relationship untenable and the freehold will be a nightmare to manage as everyone will be seeking revenge and holding out petty grievances.

[Tablefor4]

Also, they will need a Third Party Wall agreement with you as freeholder and possibly individually with you each too. floors/ ceilings count as walls for these purposes. Do a quick google the planning portal is helpful. You are completely within your rights to get a separate surveyor (which they pay for) to survey everything before hand. This protects you, frankly it also protects them against you claiming damage afterwards which might exist at the moment (plus you add to their buggeration factor as a small response to all the trouble they are causing you)

The only benefit is that they will want to finish soonish to get on with their living.

Good luck though.

[DefinitleySpeltWrong]

I would not move into a flat if I knew there was building works going on. Do you have power to veto the work? If so I would. Alternatively you could suggest they pay some compensation to you - if so I would tie it in to how long it takes them to finish the work.
I would also chase up the wooden floors. That would really irritate me.

Do they lease all of the garden?

[msfreud]

Yes, the garden belongs entirely to their flat (the only access to it is through their flat) and it is tiny - it will be nearly entirely covered by the extension, but I guess planning officers don't care about such things or they wouldn't have got planning permission. Next door has a similar extension but their garden is about 2.5x the size of this garden.

The issue of being reasonable or not is complicated - my solicitor says it would be considered unreasonable to just say no, but to consider their request (which they haven't formally made, their email pretty much said "hey, so we are building an extension, let us know if you have any questions") and then say no would be less likely to seem unreasonable (legally, anyway). So I could veto it but as some of you say, it wouldn't make me a popular person in their eyes...

I think their attitude annoys me so much that I feel more inclined to refuse. They've never apologised for any of their other noisy/disruptive/chemically smelling (the floor varnish stench was hell) works - had they turned up with a bottle of wine and said we're sorry about this, thanks for putting up with it, I might at least feel a bit more amenable.

[Littlepicklehead]

We own share of freehold and are about to start an extension and our neighbours have been nothing but understanding.

As part of the lease (which I presume is standard) you cannot unreasonably withhold consent. They should be keeping you informed at each stage and making you aware of exactly what is happening.

In terms of damage, there are a few points - they should be complying with the party wall, they also should be responsible for increased insurance premiums during the work and any increase afterwards should be carried by them.

Have you had a conversation about a licence to alter? The freehold issues this document which is drawn up by a solicitor acting on behalf of the freehold (costs are carried by those doing the work). This sets out all the obligations they have in terms of keeping you informed, correct documentation etc, and also determines that they will be responsible for any damage caused by the work. They must have this document or be in breach of the lease, so if you haven't had the discussion bring it up.

FYI we have a very experienced party wall surveyor, and in cases where each flat in a building own an equal share of the freehold, he said that the license to alter can be construed as automatic consent so negates the need to go through the party wall procedure (although this does still apply to either side)

That saying you could probably kick up a stink and insist in dissenting and having them pay for a surveyor, but is it really worth souring your relations?

Bit disappointed in some of these comments tbh. Unless you are in a detached property, building work that may affect you is sadly a fact of life. as long as they are abiding by law and following all necessary procedures it would be awful to be spiteful and try and make it difficult for them. They are not actually doing anything wrong (although the floorboard thing is annoying but maybe they don't realise?).asking for compensation would be really shitty!

Do you have regular freeholder meetings? I find this the best way to iron out problems and keep good relations. A glass of wine during also helps! Maybe you can schedule one to discuss the work, and also bring up the floorboard issue?

[DayLillie]

I think the solicitor is right about not vetoing it but can you make conditions?

Def worth talking to building control and looking at party wall agreements - if they are architects, they should know about that.

Out of interest, if they build an extention, can you extend over it?

[Littlepicklehead]

X post OP

So they have emailed you - not enough.

Did your solicitor mention a license to alter? It needs to be signed by the freehold directors and they shouldn't start any work without it.

They may be clueless about this so definitely discuss it!

They should, also give you copies of all documentation eg planning, structural, party wall etc for the freehold file

[DefinitleySpeltWrong]

What do the owners of the other flat think? If two of the free holders object then would that block the building work. I would be very worried about their lack of neighbourliness so far.

[Littlepicklehead]

Daylille - in terms of building over the top, our neighbours above looked into this.

It is a separate planning application, and a lot lot less likely to be approved (though this may vary depending on borough).

Also, this may affect the foundations which will have only been planned for single storey. Any changes to the foundations would then be the responsibility of the person building on top.

So not impossible, but tricky unless they are built at the same time

[Littlepicklehead]

But definitely - there would need to be valid reasons for withholding consent.

To be honest, the fact that there were no objections raised during the planning process would be a concern. Surely if you are going to object that is the time? Did you receive planning notices from the council informing you of the work?

[DayLillie]

Bother - I thought with foundations, single stories had to be built with foundations for possible extra stories these days - obviously not with flats - shame - it would be fun to sell it on to someone who would extend

[DayLillie]

I have seen it where someone extended over a porch to make a shower room in purpose built flats locally.

[Littlepicklehead]

Day - I guess it depends on each individual case then.

Our architect said the likelihood of getting planning for a 2 storey extension would be vv unlikely because of the impact on the neighbouring property.

I wouldn't assume it's a given anyway!

[DefinitleySpeltWrong]

Oh, ok, sorry I didn't realise that.

[msfreud]

The owner of the other flat (the middle flat, mine is the top one) is not keen on the idea either (although she also has tenants, doesn't live there herself). She did put in an objection at the planning stage that covered some of our concerns (i.e. views, light etc.) but seems this didn't have much weight.

Would be very unlikely to get planning permission to extend the other flats as no other house nearby has that. I wouldn't want to anyway, and as I'm the top floor, the middle one would have to do it first in any case. My flat would more likely get extended into the loft although that hasn't been done nearby either so might not get pp.

We haven't been having freeholder meetings because before this family bought the flat, we used to all get along and things were really easy to agree between us and everyone did their bit. These people on the other hand seem to want all the benefits of living there without any of the responsibilities i.e. we recently had work done on the roof and all quotes were obtained by me and the third flat's owner, as these guys were apparently too busy.

[Littlepicklehead]

I think you def need to start with the meetings, if nothing else you will get to know each other better and maybe communication will improve?

It does sound like they are not behaving in a very neighbourly way, my next step would be to ensure they realise they can't proceed without your express consent and their acceptance of certain terms. That might prompt them to be a bit more thoughtful towards you and the other freeholder?

[HamAndPlaques]

It might not be as off-putting to tenants as you fear. If your tenants are out at work all day then they will probably miss the vast majority of the works. It would only be a problem if you had tenants at home during the day, if they work from home or one is a SAHP, for example.

[LondonGirl83]

Exactly- Hamand Plaques-our neighbours recently extended the ground floor flat and we didn't really notice as all the building work happened while we were at work. In London its not that unusual.

Regarding the floors, when I was still in a flat, I was the top for out of three and the ground floor had wooden floors. I never heard them so I am shocked this is an issue for you. Our lease specifically said carpet was only need above the ground floor level it might not even occur to them that what they've done is bothering you. If you haven't said something to them about, perhaps state your concerns rather than just assuming they are jerks.

Agree entirely with LittlePicklehead as well.

[lucydoors]

Vetoing the works would be such a nasty thing to do, the amount of money you neighbour must have spent to get everything in order from planning permission to building reg ... try to find a compromise, talk to them, do not become the nasty neighbour....