School Appeal nightmare

[muminme]

Hello all I'm hoping for a bit of advise
My child has not been accepted into the first choice school and the letter I have just recieved states that the school has no other class rooms available which I know that there is an empty class room... I have found the planning permission that shows the extra class room.
Also I have just read the schools prospectus and it also states that siblings are 2nd choice at this VA school and which I have another child at this school... Can i use the above for my appeal?

[clam]

I suspect it's a bit more complex than that. It's not just the classroom (which is probably used for all sorts of things - support work, music lessons, clubs etc..) but the additional members of staff that would be needed to teach. And the school's size (in terms of children they may admit) is laid down by County and is subject to restrictions, particularly at Primary level.

[lucykate]

aside from the appeal, make sure you are on the waiting list, and also find out where abouts on the list. my dd still got a place (we only found out middle of the july) after being 9th on the list.

[muminme]

Thanks for answering..
A portacabin was put in place this year to let in another year group... The portacabin has two class rooms one is used for a class the other is empty and not used for any other lessons my sister works in the portacabin as a TA. The letter I have from the school has wrote that the school has no other class room and my sister has stated to me that the school does not know that I know about the other class. My D is 5th on the waiting list.

[annh]

I don't understand. When you say there is a spare classroom do you mean a room sitting there empty? Is that not just because the portacabin came as two rooms when they only needed one? Having an empty room does not mean that they can suddenly manufacture a teacher, possibly a TA and a whole roomful of furniture and resources to admit one extra child (or create an extra class).

I also don't understand your point about using the fact that your child is a sibling at appeal. Presumably, that will have been noted on your application form and already taken into consideration. So after the first category of applicant (is that looked-after children and children with a Statement or is there another category after that which you are referring to?) presumably they then found that they had more siblings applying then places left available so have allocated the spaces on the basis of proximity to school and you have lost out because of being further away than others? Correct me if I am wrong here, just trying to understand any grounds on which you might be able to appeal. Do you think the school have somehow missed the fact that you dc is a sibling?

[muminme]

Hi, Yes you are right about the sibling issue but can I use the prospectus to show that the school states that sibilings are second choice on both faith and non faith places? (sorry not good at this) I understand you piont about extra staff and furniture for the extra class room but they did that this year to bring an extra class into another year group. I am very troubled about this as you can see I am grasping at straws but I must be able to use the part in which the school has wrote that there is no class room available?
Thanks for answering

[annh]

I have no knowledge of the specifics relating to bulge classes but I think there are all kinds of issues relating to that which have to be considered. The school has to be able to maintain that extra class right the way through to Yr 6 in terms of space and resources. Given that they are already accommodating 30 extra children in such a class in your school, do they have space for 30 more in terms of hall accommodation, lunch space, playground etc. It's also not clear if there is a requirement for such a class. How many children failed to get in to the school? If your dc is one of only a few, then the LA will not agree to an extra class, not should they. If however, there is a general dire shortage of spaces in all schools in your area, maybe it is something which can be explored. There are a number of people on these threads who are very knowledgeable about this kind of thing, perhaps one of them will be able to supply more information.

On the sibling issue, is your dc baptised or practising in whichever faith you are speaking about? If yes, then it would seem unusual (but not impossible) if as a sibling they did not get a space. If however, your dc are not baptised then even as a sibling your chances are probably slim. I just checked our school's admission policy and in that scenario you would be 6th in order of priority. Recently we have only been getting to 3rd priority applicants in our school and not all of those (baptised and practising in the parish but without a sibling in school) are getting a place. You may just be way outside the acceptance criteria currently. Perhaps you can clarify about the baptism and faith requirements for us?

[muminme]

We are a Christian family but at the time of application we had not been to our local church for 3 months because of a family crises, I did not put place of worship!!! However we are back at our church since March I have a letter from the Priest stating that w are a Christian family.. Will that make a difference?

[Goldberry]

My dd wasn't offered a place at our first choice of primary school (or second, or third), due to lack of space. When we went to appeal, it became obvious from very early on in the proceedings that the local education authority were completely out of date with the actual capacity of the school. (Classrooms had been altered/swapped around to make more space, and there were immediate plans for extending them.)
We, and the other family appealing for their daughter, won the appeal. I still don't know if it was the LEA's fault or the school's fault for not keeping the LEA up-to-date, but it made me realy to think of the money and time wasted on an appeal, not to mention the worry about dd's future, when there should have been no problem offering her a place to begin with. It made me wonder how much this must be happening around the country, and how many people fail to get their choice simply because they don't appeal.
Sorry, rant over. Use everything you can for your appeal. At ours there was a representative from the school, who was very keen to demonstrate that they DID have the space for more children. Would there be a representative from the school at your appeal, OP? If so, they might be better placed to put forward that information.

[annh]

Hang on, have you already posted about this under another name? It is beginning to sound very familiar? At the time of application, you should have submitted a supplementary application form to the school as well as sending your LA application form? If your three months of non-attendance occured exactly with the school application period, that would be unfortunate but I don't know why you wouldn't have brought along the form and had it signed anyway by the priest or minister. I would doubt that the priest would be aware of whether you were there every Sunday or not unless you are in one of those unfortunate parishes where you have to sign-in for Sunday services. Even so, there is quite a window for applications to be submitted to anyone checking your attendance would clearly be able to see that you were normally there, left for a short time for specific reasons, then came back? If you did not submit this form (sounds likely as you are now talking about a letter from your priest describing you as a Christian family) then unfortunately you are way down the priority list and I would think your chances of success at appeal are limited. I take it your older dc is not baptised either?

[panelmember]

Yes, is this a duplicate of an earlier thread? Are you the OP who had a convoluted story about why your children had not been baptised?

Very quickly, as I don't want to repeat myself:

You need to clarify now why your child has not been admitted as a sibling, in case this is an error which can be put right now without going to appeal. Siblings usually are 3rd priority after looked-after children and those with special needs so it's unusual - but not impossible - for a sibling not to get a place. Possibly the bulge class has created an influx of siblings so that not every sibling gets a place and the places have been filled in order of proximity to the school.

Having an empty room isn't really the issue. Infant class sizes are limited to 30 by law. The school sets a Published Admission Number. Arguing that there is an empty room/broom cupboard/corridor which could be used as a classroom to accommodate an extra class misses the point - the PAN has been fixed and that's what the appeal panel has to work with. And even if there is some physical space there probably isn't the money to equip the room, hire a teacher and so on. Funding would have been provided for these things to enable the school to add last year's bulge class, but that does not mean that the LEA can or will do the same this year (or that the school wants to go down this route).

Again you need to check the exact wording of the school's oversubscription criteria, but statements like "we are a Christian family" are not usually enough to get a faith place at a VA school. The criteria are usually about church attendance and if you weren't attending church and had no letter from your priest to say you were regular attenders, you probably would not qualify for a faith place.

[muminme]

Thank you GoldBerry There is hope then.

[clam]

Why did the priest only write that you were a Christian family, and not that you have always been regular church-goers? (glossing over the 3 month lapse).