Are good schools oversubscribed everywhere? Or is it just London / inner cities?

[lowrib]

Having lived in London all my life I'm used to good schools being over subscribed, and this being a real problem. I just assumed it was the same everywhere.

DP is from Scotland, and says it's not like that at all. He says in Scotland you just go to your local school and it's fine. It that true?!

Also, in general are there places where great schools are easy to get in to?

The reason I'm asking is because we're planing to move out of London and settle somewhere less urban for DS's school years. Don't know where yet - we have ties to quite a few places in England, Scotland and Wales, and all bets are on right now.

So, in a few years time, DS will be starting school in the September intake. In a perfect world, what would suit us would be to move in the June / July, just a few months before term starts. But that won't work from a school application point of view will it?

Originally I thought not, but then again if there are in fact areas which good schools aren't over-subscribed, then we could just turn up next to a good school and get a place, couldn't we?

I'm confused - help!

TIA

[GrumpyYoungFogey]

London is somewhat unusual in that middle-class white people live in relatively close proximity to large numbers of ethnic minorities, many of whom do not speak English.

This is the elephant in the room that must not be mentioned when one discusses "good schools". "Good schools" tend to be those containing fewer ethnics, or with ethnics whose behaviour at least closest resembles middle-class English norms.

Such pressures are less outside London, where one would be worried about ones children being victimised at many secondary schools.

[Smithagain]

I'm in Surrey. There are about half a dozen decent schools within a ten minute drive of here, and two within easy walking distance. Sometimes people get their second or third choice, but there just isn't a "bad" school in the area, so not too much stress involved.

[emy72]

No unfortunately the oversubcription of good schools is by no means limited to London, I'm afraid. We are in Yorkshire and it's exactly the same where we are. The comprehensive that we are hoping to send our DD to eventually gets 800 applications for 280 places per year. And that's because it's a good school. Our local primary is also chronically oversubcribed so when we moved here in August we couldn't get our DD1 (reception) in it. The school she goes to is 7 miles away and rapidly getting oversubcribed too. Nightmare over here, tbh, unless you are happy for them to go to a sink school or a very very average/below average one.

[duckyfuzz]

@ grumpy

our local school is oversubscribed in rural co durham

[BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny]

Grumpy!!

Ethnicity has nothing to do with whether a school is 'good' or not. Ds's old hole was prodminently white middle class families and he was bullied like there was no tomorrow. Behaviour and what makes a good school is a tough one, I'd say ethnicity has nothing to do with this.

[GrumpyYoungFogey]

Oops, sorry for mentioning the Elephant duckyfuzz.

But even if you live in County Durham the term "good schools" is just a euphemism. Schools are only as good as the raw product that goes in - what you are meaning to say is good pupils.

[duckyfuzz]

no actually I mean good schools, please don't presume to speak for me

[duckyfuzz]

fwiw my response about the local school being oversubscribed was to the OP not you grumpy

[BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny]

I tend to find that some children of non-english parents are often better behaved to be honest grumpy.

[FiveGoMadInDorset]

All our local primary schools are excellent and I could have got DD into any of them.

[duckyfuzz]

In our village there are 2 primary schools, on oversubscribed, the other not, the catchment area is identical for both

I work in an oversubscribed outstanding secondary school in one of the most deprived towns in the country, the pupils are far from 'good'

[McBitchy]

we live in yorkshire too and it is awful. This year ds5 is applying ( not personally!) and I we are ok because ds4 is already there. Some schools in our town have ditched the sibling rule...

It is embarrassing when people move here - they come ( normally from london) all optimistic about the great schools and then after a while hear the local talk of 'not getting in' and 'appeals' and gradually the penny drops. There was terrible outcries last year with people being placed at schools 7 miles out - but that is par for the course...

The secondary school is dreadfully over subscribed even at sixth form level - already they have 50 more applicants than places and it is March...

[BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny]

The 'good' schools tend to be oversubscribed because everyone wants their child to go there. This results in a rise in house prices, a reduction in the catchment area and forces families who are unable to afford to rent/unable to afford a huge mortgage to move elsewhere. We've always had areas that are less affluent, it happens in every town and city in the UK and the housing in these areas is cheaper. When the middle class families move to one area then this creates a divide across the whole city/town. Alot of schools in less desirable areas are undersubscribed because of this knock on effect.

[lowrib]

Eh?! I seem to have opened a can of worms!

GrumpyyoungFogey I appreciate you're trying to help, but I'm afraid your post is as best presumptuous, and in reality really quite offensive actually!

Let me be very clear here. For me at least, this is most definitely NOT some coded thing saying I want my child to go to a middle class or predominately white school.

I have been brought up in a very mixed area - in terms of both race and class, and I value this immensely. There are some brilliant primary schools in the borough which I would be very pleased to send my child to (and which I know very well as I used to work at them)
We're not leaving London to go somewhere white! Being in all white places for too long unnerves somewhat me actually, but I digress.

By a good school, I mean one that has a decent head, and a committed and lovely staff, and provides a stimulating, enjoyable environment and a good education for the pupils. I'd like my son to go to a school which has been deemed good by - oh lets see - OFSTED perhaps, not the BNP!

I'm not even going to comment on the "victimised" statement, or your later posts. Ridiculous.

[GrumpyYoungFogey]

cat64

Quite. When I was at secondary school (early 90s) one attended ones catchment primary school then your class move en masse to the catchment secondary, where the full social range, from the children of consultants and lawyers to the children of criminals all attended.

That broad (dare I say it, socialist) vision of education will not exist for my children.

Today - to use a literary (kind off) example - there is no way Pandora Braithwaite and Barry Kent would attend the same school (and Adrian Mole's life age 10/11 would have extra angst as he waited to see if he made it to the "good" one).

I'm not sure whether school "choice" was a Nulab innovation but I definitely think the Euan Blair / London Oratory episode is fittingly representative of it.

"Choice" seems to exist to allow the middle-classes in London and elsewhere to game the system (via Church attendance, entrance exams or plain pushiness) so that they can have a state education for their children, whilst insulating them from the worst realities of modern Britain.

If nothing else, a return to kids attending their local school would shake up the complacency of the middle-classes.

[GrumpyYoungFogey]

Being in all white places for too long unnerves... ...me actually

Blatant display of racism duly noted.

[lowrib]

Sorry I got distracted by the racism.

Thanks everyone else for the more sensible replies!

So am I right in thinking that it differs from place to place, basically?

[FiveGoMadInDorset]

Yes, most iof our schools are undersubscribed, we are just going from 3 tier to 2 tier aswell. All our primaries are good to outstanding.

[bigstripeytiger]

I live in Scotland. I would agree with your DH.
In the place I live people do tend to go to the catchment school (in the city I live you are in the catchment for 2 schools, a secular school and a catholic school). Some people do make placing requests, but because not many do they tend to be accepted. I think that because the schools are generally good there isnt the motivation to start making placement requests, and the ones that are made at my DDs school seem to be because it suits the parents eg near to thier work, rather than because they think that their child would not have got a good education at their catchment school.

[BelleDeChocolateFluffyBunny]

Yes, inner city schools tend to be oversubscribed aswell, as do certain schools in affluent areas and some village schools. It's the luck of the draw I'm afraid. The schools here (derbyshire) won't even tell you if they have a place for your child, you have to call the LEA and ask, then apply.

[lowrib]

I always thought "choice" was a Tory thing that New Labour has continued. It certainly was in schools, and in health care too. Its roots are neo-liberal.

It's partly a way of undermining public institutions by introducing the market place.

The problem with choice in schools is it only works if you have surplus places. Which we do not, it would seem!

"Choice" is one of those weasily political marketing words which in reality actually means the opposite for most people!