I am sure that is what Riddley thought..

oh come on, it's anonymous, the op hasn't given any info that might identify her

Except when you discuss it on a website..

oh that's a bit different then.

The reason they've been fairly open with me is because the school hadn't realised how friendly my ds and this lady's ds are, and obviously this creates a problem because my child has spent a fair amount of time at this lady's house with only her in charge of the children. Her ds comes to my house just as much, and I'm now far more comfortable with him doing that, than my child going there.

My brother's children have also spent time there in the school hols when they've visited me, so I'm thankful the school felt they could be truthful. I also work at the school, (not regularly, just as and when they need me), so they know I understand it's confidential.

Yes I'm a bit surprised by how free and open they have been with you. Very unusual and a bit strange. Well, more than a bit strange really.

i believe it but i think it's extremely indiscreet and unprofessional of them

i cant believe the school has outlned anything to you abut this womens problems. you are another parent at the school - no more than that.

she would have every right to be peed off - i certainly would be.

can't quite believe it.

is it ethical for school staff to be discussing this with your in detail?

Thanks again for all your responses. Had a chat with two school staff yesterday afternoon. They outlined the problems this lady has got with alcoholism, it's been going on for years apparently but because she's developed coping strategies and clever ways of masking what's going on, hardly anybody is aware of it other than a few select school staff who act as her support. Looking back now I can think of several times I felt she was acting "oddly", isn't everything so much clearer with hindsight!

She's aware that I know everything, as she was in contact with the school yesterday. She's apparently mortified, she's managed to hide this problem from many friends over the years. She wants to speak to me so I'm going to phone her this weekend, now she's in a clearer state of mind. I'm still very angry about the other day and she knows it, but need to talk to her re. how we go about playdates, etc. I'd be much happier having the children at my house when they want to play together in the holidays, but I'll invite her along too as I just feel she needs support.

MIFLAW - I posted that in response to your earlier suggestion that no-one was bothered about why the mother was acting that way - that is just as important as dealing with the immediate 'child in car with drunk driver'. But you do have to deal first with the situation of a child being put in danger.

MIFLAW, at the beginning of the thread I said the OP should inform the school - who will have procedures to follow - and should also tell the mother that she is very unhappy with what has happened, and that she will be telling the school. I think that approach both safeguards the children involved, but also gives the 'drunk' mother a perspective on what she's doing.

When someone else - a friend - tells you what you are doing is unacceptable and dangerous, maybe it is time to listen. And combined with telling the school, which is necessary to protect the children involved, may mean she gets help, if she wants it.

Snorbs

Completely agree.

I never advocated a "so what?" posting - indeed, why would anyone bother with such a posting?

And we are in agreement that people on this site are not professionals and are not guaranteed to respond in the "right" way, especially as one cannot know what is the "right" way for an individual.

That was my point, though - the posters who said, "well, if she came on here asking for help she'd definitely get it" were, in my opinion, being optimistic ...

MIFLAW, I disagree about judging based on outcomes rather than actions. Drinking and driving is illegal (and irresponsible, and dangerous) no matter if you manage to make it all the way home safely or you wrap your car round a tree en-route.

As for whether she'd be castigated or not - again, that depends on her approach. One of "I did a very bad thing, I feel awful, I think I need help..." would garner a very different general response than "I drank and drove with someone else's kids, the other mum's having a go at me, what's her problem?" kind of thing.

With the best will in the world MumsNet is largely made up of average parents who will view a situation from a standpoint rooted in their life experiences. Anything that threatens the well-being of children (as a drunk-driver will) and, particularly, if that person failed to accept any responsibility for their actions is likely to make people here react a certain and often negative way. It's not ideal, but it's life.

Relatively few here will have had close-up and personal experience of alcoholism and very few, if any, are trained addiction counsellors. People here aren't necessarily going to react the "right" way. If someone wants a guaranteed supportive and accepting response to an alcohol problem then a quick google search will throw up any number of sites specialising in alcohol and/or addiction issues.

Moreover, a "Please help..." message would at least suggest that the person posting it realises they've got a problem and would be open to suggestions, support and advice. A "So what if I drink and drive?" message would suggest that regardless of what anyone said they're not ready to listen to sense.

I would have thought you should be telling the police.What can the school do ?

MIFLAW it's not the addiction versus girly lunch that people are making the distinction about; it's the endangerment versus non-endangerment.

I can't say I'd be over the moon about someone drunk looking after my DC's; but someone being drunk in the sitting room while they play with a doll's house or watch TV, is a very different proposition from sitting in a car with someone drunk driving it, IMO.

I disagree with those of you who say that the OP shouldn't tell the other mums.

Yes it is possible that they will gossip about it, people gossip about all sorts of things.

But if my child's life and limb were reguarly being endangered by someone and another adult knew about this and kept this information from me so that I was unable to make an informed choice about what to do about this endangerment (for example, agreeing to playdates but taking the DC there myself) I would be absolutely disgusted and angry. And if my child was injured or killed as a result of this behaviour and I hadn't been told this was going on by another adult who knew about it, I really don't know what I would feel about her. I think this is the sort of information you have no moral right to keep to yourself, if you know for a fact that other people's children are being regularly endangered.

My point was that, being so castigated, she would then probably (and quite understandably) leave the thread and never receive the help which everyone here is clamouring to assure me she would be offered.

Yes, she's in the wrong, yes, she's irresponsible, yes, she's a danger to herself and others - now, where's the humanity?

I am not suggesting that she not be held accountable for her actions, although it is probably more helpful to judge on the outcomes and, as I say, this time no one was actually hurt.

Also, there is definitely a double standard in operation on this thread - it is understandable that someone might do the school run after making an explicit (ie non-addiction-driven) choice to drink ("girly lunch") but not if someone feels compelled (addiction). That's screwed up IMHO.

Actually, in my experience, it's a very easy choice not to drink - most alcoholics who make it have already done a good job of ruining their lives and desperately want things to change - but one needs first to be aware that it is a possible choice and that there is a problem in the first place.

onthepier, you have nothing to feel silly about. You've done the right thing. Do talk to the school as the more insight you can give them about her current state and behaviour, the better able they will be to decide a course of action.

MIFLAW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you have achieved. Alcoholism is a drug addiction like any other. Some people beat their addictions with the help of the twelve steps, some through secular approaches, and some simply decide that enough is enough.

As with all addictions, it is fundamentally a choice over whether to continue the addictive behaviour or not. It is also a choice to avoid organisations, information and/or support that could help the addict move past their addiction. I'm not saying it's an easy choice; if it was, my ex would've likely stopped years ago and she'd not have gone on to lose jobs, friends, relationships and our children.

If this woman did post on mumsnet "I got drunk, I drove to school, I picked up my and someone else's kids then drove them home" then, yes, she probably would get castigated. It's an appallingly irresponsible and potentially lethal thing to do. Whether she drank because she was an alcoholic or just someone with no sense of responsibility is irrelevant to the act itself. Even if she is an alcoholic she still bears full responsibility for her actions. To ignore an alcoholic's poor choices and to not hold them accountable for their actions will merely enable the alcoholism to continue.

I would still have a word onthepier with the school to say that you are aware and hoping to support the dc's by having them to your house to play with your dc. That way they know it's obvious to other parents that they can see what is going on. It might be the last bit that makes them step up their help with the mother.

How do you know though that she was drunk?

You are going by hearsay. Have a word with the school if it makes you feel better but you don't know she was drunk.

Thanks for all your posts. MELISSA, the reason I gave my ds for not wanting him to go there any more is that I'm worried about his friend's mum, she's sometimes not well so I'd rather my ds's friend played here. I have NOT said I don't want him to see him, I really like this little boy.

I saw my friend's neighbour (who brought my ds home yesterday), after the school run this morning. By then I'd already put a note in the contact box in the school office, asking if I could have a chat with the lady who deals with all social/family matters, today if poss.

My friend's neighbour caught me up on the way home, wanted to fill me in on details about yesterday while there were no children around. Basically, this lady is an alcoholic, the school have known about it for many years and are of an ongoing support to her. Her children are small but are more aware of the situation than they should be. This neighbour of hers has given me her number now, said she's part of a support network for my ds's friend's mum, and any time I'm worried about this lady's condition and know she's on her own with the children, I'm to call her.

I just feel sad for her now really, and yes, looking back I've probably mistaken signs of drunkenness for scattiness many times, but at least I know now! Feel a bit silly in a way having put a note in the school box, as the school are obviously well aware and have been for a long time! Still, better safe than sorry.

Snorbs

I know about AA, the 12 steps, etc. And, armed with those, then yes, the alcoholic has a choice about the first drink.

Until he or she finds that, though, the choice is perceived by the alcoholic to be no greater than "choosing" whether to drink water or eat food. It is a recognised mental illness.

And as alcoholism is sometimes nicknamed "the illness that tells you you haven't got it," actually approaching AA (or indeed anyone else who may be able to help) is often very difficult for the drunk and no one can predict what will make it possible. For me, it was the court case around a car crash, coincidentally enough - but the crash itself didn't stop me drinking and, indeed, I drank on leaving the court. And I know other people (now in recovery) who would have drunk MORE on the basis of such an incident.

You are right, too - if that woman had come to mumsnet and said, "I have a problem with drink" I am sure the reception would have been universally sympathetic and supportive. But, to compare like with like, if she had come along and said "I have just driven after drinking and did so with my own and other people's children in the car - perhaps I need help" do you think the support would have been universal then or do you think she would have got plenty of, "I'd have killed you if it was my kids," "I hope someone's reported you to the school," "what sort of parent are you?" "I would never trust you again." And how long do you think she would stick around to wait for all the wonderful sympathy and support she's guaranteed?

She did wrong. She knows she did wrong - believe me, she really does. You have no evidence that she is an unkind or even an inadequate mother. The OP is not going to risk it again. No children died or were harmed or even unhappy or scared as far as we know.

Like I say, time for me to back out of this one.

OMG - you must sort this out.

I have been known to have 'had a couple' on the school run - after a girly lunch but I would never drive or do it if I was minding other peoples children.

MIFLAW I appreciate that, once the first drink has gone down, an alcoholic may well have no real choice about continuing to drink. However there is an element of choice in having that first drink. There has to be; if there really was no choice, AA's Twelve Steps wouldn't work and there'd be no such thing as an alcoholic in recovery. There is also the choice of whether to continue with such self-destructive behaviours in general or to go and get help.

Also, there are supportive threads on MN for people with drink problems. You're a top poster on at least one of them!

I would guess that the mother who is drinking is probably in total denial. Having grown up with a mother like this I can speak from experience. She is the only one who can deal with it. I would tell my DS that he can have her children over to you both for his sake and theirs.

If she has a problem, you can't stop it just quietly alert support services for the children and ultimately for her for as and when she can to fix it.

The police might breathalise her on an annoymous tip off, but doubt it.

Please don't go to the other Mums. People will be so judgemental and the children will only suffer. This would be gossip, even when appearing to be done out of concern. That family will be labelled and that will be that.

Ah, yes, I lived that and even 25 years later could cheerfully throttle the well-meaning Mother who effectively left us all out in the cold.

onthepier...you wrote "he's in tears now as I've said I don't want him going there any more"
Just wondering, what reason did you give your DS as to why he could not go round his friends home anymore?

Speaking from experience (of my telling DS they could no longer spend time with another child, for a completely different reason than the one here), this will be passed on without you having to say a word, with him saying to the friend he is no longer allowed to come round and will give the reason as to why (from what reason you said to him), which will then be passed back to the mum. Not saying this will happen, but if he is upset about it, more than likely he will tell his friend at school today.

tbh, I wouldn't have bucketloads of sympathy for an adult who chose to get drunk, take a car and pick up her children and someone else's, drive them to her home and be alone and pissed with them. If that makes me a horrible person, so be it.

I don't know why you find the idea of an alcoholic mother getting support on MN so amusing. This thread is responding to an OP's dilemma and backing her up in her choice. A thread which was phrased along the lines of needing support because losing control of drinking etc., would have that angle. The two are not mutually exclusive, especially on a place as big and diverse as mumsnet.

I was the one who mentioned Social Services in the incident I had..

The school knew about the problems the woman was having and she had been under the care of SS before.

I was asked to speak to her social worker as it was me who had seen her (I was a member of staff at the time so it was in a professional capacity). I did not suggest SS should be involved-they already were.

Snorbs

It is in the nature of drink problems that choice does not really come into it. If it did, they wouldn't be problems. They are very difficult cycles to break.

But more generally, I know that you (all of you on this thread) are right and I am wrong. This thread makes me angry and I can't put my finger on why. But in the light of the pervading timbre of the comments so far, I do find the idea of that woman coming on Mumsnet and asking for advice richly amusing.

I'll make myself scarce now. I see this is not a thread for me.

If this woman does have a drink problem then Social Service's involvement could well be a good thing. If nothing else, they can help her gain access to a wide variety of support. Fundamentally, she has a choice over her drinking problems. Her children do not.

My ex used to go and pick up our kids from school after she'd been drinking. The school teachers noticed. Sadly, the school never told me at the time. I only found out after Social Services got involved and SS had talked to the school.

Who is keen to get SS in? I've merely observed that telling the school may be the difference between a SS report or not. That's not being keen to get them in, it's just an observation. And also, getting them involved isn't the opposite to having sympathy for the problems of the woman concerned, it's just a recognition that the safety and welfare of children may need to take precedence over empathy for the problems of an adult.

Before anyone criticises my arithmetic those are meant to be ranges, not exact figures!

Maybe not - but the original question has been more than answered (in fact the OP answered it herself in her first post) and threads often move away from the original point once that's happened.

Anyway, I just wondered if anyone did. It's a rule of thumb that one in seven people has a problem with alcohol (can't remember where those stats are from but my sense is that they're about right.) Even if it's one in ten, in a typical class of 30 kids that means an average of 4-8 parents with drink problems and so 2-8 kids living in a household where drink disrupts lives.

In that context - and given that some people here are keen to get Social Services in (although the thread isn't "about" that either) - I was wondering if anyone here felt sympathy for the adults concerned or even a desire to address the broader and more long-term picture.

Phew!!!!

sorry that was a cross-post, in response to miflaw

Huh????!

Yes but that's not what the thread is about.

If she came on to mn and asked for advice, I'm sure she'd get plenty of it.

Totally agree HBLB & Sidge - tell the school PLEASE!!! This may well be a very small part of a much much bigger picture. It's far easier to talk to them in the first place rather than going to other parents - judge the school's reaction - if they seem like this really is the icing on the top of the cake then leave it for them to take things forward - there are very clear procedures for this sort of thing. If not - speak with the other mums..... and if you feel brave enough, with the mother herself - I think you have a fair amount to say - and she'll probably be expecting it. Good luck, thinking of you.

Just out of interest, does anyone here give even the slightest toss about the woman herself and what might be behind her drinking?

Schools often know a lot more than you might think. If you tell them you have known her to drink drive and they have other suspicions then they should act on them.

Think you need to tell the school because if there are other things going on, it might add to the "picture" - could be the difference between a referral to SS or not.

Can you speak to the woman herself directly? I cannot imagine the school would do anything. If she drove your son in her car, drunk...........the least she can expect is for you to go --fucking mental-- and have a word with her.

I was once ever so slightly tipsy at pick-up as I had been for a loooooong lunch with a good friend who was only about for a couple of days.

My kids usually get the school bus home but as I was in the area I went to pick them up.

But I would never have driven or taken anyone elses kids in those circs.

As a teacher, I say you must tell the school. But be prepared for them not to do very much if they think it was a one-off.

But the neighbour said "family problems today" - maybe she is just scatty and this is the first time she's been drunk at school pick up? Not that that excuses it, but don't assume that this is more than a one off.

Oh, onthepier, that must have been an awful shock. Blimey. Of course you must tell the school.

Make sure you do invite ds's friend over often, though.

onthepier - a team of 30 of us all missed the fact that our boss was an alcoholic. Erratic behaviour, lying, being 'scatty' were all just put down to him being a strange and slightly unpleasant person.

He was then put on sudden sick leave and it all came out that he'd been drinking for well over a year with a can of coke on his desk actually being 90% vodka (and driving to work and driving home etc.)

Alcoholism can be hard to spot...

The school will have procedures for looking into what is going on and dealing with it. They can look out for other children getting in the car - although if I saw her about to drive off with another child, I would tell that child's parent. And I'd let her know that I was going to do all that.

You give her fair warning to change her ways and set the school up to help her out, but if she's endangering children by driving while drunk, it is an emergency and I would intervene there and then, without a doubt.

Thanks for your posts. Mrsmaidamess, she'd been drinking as her neighbour brought my ds back her early, her children called round there as they were worried about her mum, who'd basically left them to it and gone for a lie down on the sofa. This neighbour didn't want to say too much to me, but basically said ds's friend's mum had had "family problems" today, and had more than a few drinks while the children were at school.

I feel terrible now when I think of all the times my ds has been there, (both her children are lovely by the way). He's even had a few overnight stays, he's in tears now as I've said I don't want him going there any more, if he wants to see his friend he'll have to come to us. I'm questioning myself now, "Has the drinking been a regular thing, have I missed any signs while my ds has been in her care?" I've always been the one to confirm arrangements, remind her of pick up times etc, but she's the sort of person who's got so much going on all the time that she can be a bit scatty. It seems I may have mistaken "scattiness" for "drunkenness"!

I'm worried about the school holidays coming up as my ds's friend tends to phone quite a lot asking if my ds can go over there. I'm going to have to say no to him and explain why to his mum.

Thank heavens ds is fine. How do you know for sure she was drunk four or five hours ago?

I wouldn't tell the other mums, I would tell the school and give the names of the other mums for them to tell them confidentially and not in a gossipy way. Not saying you would gossip but talking about it to everyone but not her seems wrong imho.

well no there is no easy answer as to what was best in that situation
i am sorry about it

I know Franny but he had already taken her and was holding her by the shoulders, there would have been a tussle

I should have turned round and bellowed for another member of staff to come out

poor little love

The school should know as they shouldn't release a child into the care of an adult that is not capable of looking after them - particularly letting that adult take other people's children.

greeny in those circs you are ok to not hand child over
don't know if that would have been worse but legally you should not entrust child to unfit person

The school should be informed because sorry if your picking up from school drunk, what else is going on?

one of the dads at the nursery I work at turned up drunk once

he's a knobbo anyway, thinks nothing of using the f word casually in front of his 4yo daughter and rides his bike into the playground like an overgrown child

on this occasion I was handing his dd over and he swayed and leered "ssshhhe bin a gggoood girrrl den?"

I really wanted to just snatch her back but I didn't know what to do

I told the head teacher etc

lowlife pond scum

I wonder why you feel it necessary to tell the school?

And that is part of being her friend, too. Not bullying her or adding to her woes, but giving her some perspective on what she's doing.

If you think there is a possibility this could be a regular thing, I would phone the police. Give them her licence plate number and warn them to be on the lookout. They can then stop her and breathalise her.

You must tell the school. Even if she's only done it once, that is once too often.

And if it were my child that had been in the car, I would let her know what I thought about it and also let her know that I was going to inform the school. Whatever her personal circs, she needs to know there is a line and she is way, way over it.

omg - yes I think I would have a quiet word with the school.

Are you def. sure it was drink? And not medication? (not excusing, just wondering about other poss . explanations)

I would also warn the other parents whose children she sometimes picks up. If it was my child I would want to know.

You must tell the school. it ahppened with me, I had to speak to social services and it transpired it wasn't the first time.

I would also warn the other parents whose children she sometimes picks up. If it was my child I would want to know.

I know for sure that one of the mums at school was drunk on this pm's school run, feel absolutely sick about it as my ds was in her car, knew nothing of her condition at the time until an hour ago.

I obviously know (and like) this lady, and really feel I should tell the school. I'm wondering how often she's picked up her own children while under the influence, and I know her two regularly have friends back for tea, who she obviously drives. I've often thought her general manner was somewhat erratic, sometimes completely on the ball, at other times almost on a different planet but she comes over a lovely person.

My ds is fine luckily, although I won't let him go in her car again. Would you tell the school about this? I don't want to land her in it if it was a one-off, (even if it was, in my mind it's totally unacceptable), but feel someone needs to do something to protect her own and other people's, children.

As I've been typing this I've made up my mind, I'm definitely going to speak in confidence to the school office about this.