Can you talk to me about in-year admissions and late normal round admissions?

[ConfusedOverSchools]

We currently live overseas, but we might be returning to the UK (permanently) this autumn.

I have 2 boys, one would be starting year 3 in September, the other (August birthday) would be due to start Reception in September.

We won't know for a few months if it is all going ahead but we should know by June. However we won't be able to move into our house until August, as our house is currently let out to tenants, and we'd need to give them notice.

From reading the council website, it looks as though we have to be actually resident in the house to apply for schools.

Presumably all the places will be allocated by then - but does it count as late normal round admissions or in-year admissions, given that the year has not yet started - they seem to have different protocols for each, and for in-year admissions you can approach the school directly to see if it has places whereas for late admissions you just put 3 choices on a form and send it off centrally.

Obviously I would like both DC to be in the same school - and I would be happy for the youngest to delay starting rather than start in a different school and then move.

Should I think about applying for a place for the eldest first, and once they've got one, apply for the younger one one and then I can write on the form he already has a sibling at the school?

If I get offered places at two different schools, can I say that I want both the places, but then not actually start DS2 until the summer term (in the hope that a place comes up in the same school as DS1). I know he legally doesn't need to be there until the term he is 5, but there is a sentence on the council site saying you have to start within 4 weeks of being given a place.

I know that if you turn down a place they don't have to offer you another one, and it is better to take the place and put yourself on waiting lists. But would an under 5 have to attend or lose their place?

How likely is it that they will actually get a place at the same school? Is this an impossible dream given that we will have to apply after everyone else, and should I start planning for having to be in 2 different primary schools at the same time each morning, long term?

What will happen if there aren't any free places at all? How far away might they make us travel, and might they make us travel to different places for each child?

Thanks for any insight into this. I didn't think we'd be having to deal with it for another 2 years, so it has come as a bit of a sudden shock .
Where we live now, everyone just goes to their local school automatically!

[ConfusedOverSchools]

I just thought of another question (sorry)- we will be living close to the border between local authorities.

Presumably we could also apply to schools in the other local authority. Or can we only do one or the other?

Does the other authority have to give us a place somewhere if we apply to them? Say if we applied to one of their schools that didn't have space, would they then offer us an alternative one that did? Or just say no space?

[TwoOddSocks]

You don't have to attend school until the term in which you turn 5. Since your DS2 is very much summer born he has the option to delay his start to school and start in Yr1 at 5 or during the reception year you could even apply to decelerate his schooling so that he starts reception a year later (although some LEAs are very resistant to this). If you want more information about this issue search for "Flexible School Admissions for Summer Borns" on Facebook or online if you're not on Facebook. Or consult the DoE guidelines here: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/389448/Summer_born_admissions_advice_Dec_2014.pdf . It is worth being knowledgable about this as some schools aren't aware of the new guidelines.

I think you should contact schools about in year admissions. There are very strict rules about infant class sizes so having your DS1 in school would not guarantee a place for DS2 - you'd need to contact the schools in question to ensure a place was available. I believe you are certainly entitled to a school, place for both of your sons from the term they turned 4 onwards, but it could involve travel and you're certainly not guaranteed your first (or second or third) preference.

[prh47bridge]

The council must maintain a waiting list for each school until Christmas so I would expect this to be treated as late in-year admissions.

I would apply for both places at the same time.

You have the right to defer entry for your younger son until the start of term following his fifth birthday. You must accept the offer quickly but, as long as he starts before the end of the academic year, they cannot take the place away just because you choose to defer entry.

It is impossible to tell whether your sons will end up at the same school. However, if they are put in different schools you can appeal. You should have a reasonable chance of success appealing for your Y3 son to attend the school allocated for your younger son.

The council must come up with places for your sons even if all the schools are full. The guidelines suggest that the schools should be no more than 45 minutes journey from home. Note that if the allocated school is over 2 miles away (3 miles for your oldest once he is 8) the council must provide free transport to and from school for your child.

You can apply for schools in another local authority but you do so through the local authority where you live. You cannot apply directly to another LA.

[ragged]

It depends where you go, what school you want. Popular schools fill up fast & get waiting lists, but most ordinary/requires improvement schools have places (and are perfectly fine places to send your kids to).

[ConfusedOverSchools]

Thanks that is all really helpful. Up to 45 minutes away though! That seems really far.

I am happy with just an ordinary school, I think I'd prefer that to a pushy one. I just want a nice, friendly atmosphere and encouraging teachers as close to home as possible. But I suppose that is what everyone wants, and that's what makes those schools popular.

And I am happy for DS2 to wait a year - though I think I'd rather he then went straight into year one than pushed reception back a year. If we stay in this country after all, he won't start school until he is 6 anyway.

So for applying for schools in another authority (just to get this straight) - I would phone the schools up directly to see if they had a space, and then ask my own local authority if we could have a place there?

The other thing I am worried about is accepting places without seeing the school in action, but we won't be able to get back to the UK before the summer, and then they'll all be closed I suppose.

[prh47bridge]

If your son starts in the September following his fifth birthday he will almost certainly go straight into Y1.

Yes, you always apply to your own local authority for a school place regardless of where in the country the school is located. It may be that your LA will then tell you to apply direct to the school concerned but most will deal with it for you. Your own LA is definitely the starting point.

[ragged]

This may sound nutty, if you're stuck for local gossip, trying to choose a school without seeing it: try the local Facebook selling pages. A lot of them would allow you to post that kind of query & you can get a quick summary of local opinion. Might be better than choosing just from Ofsted reports.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

I suppose that simplifies things if I only have to deal with one LA!

I am still reeling over an up-to 45 minutes journey being OK for a 4 year old.

Looking at the map, I would be basically happy with any of the schools within a 5 mile radius, but further out than that there are some schools in quite dodgy areas that my knee jerk reaction is to avoid (although I suppose the schools themselves might be lovely).

Would they take into account how long it would take by public transport, or would it be 45 minutes by car (even if you didn't actually have access to one)?

Does "council must provide free transport" mean they would send a taxi? I know a friend's DS has a taxi, but he goes to a special unit. Or would they just provide a free bus pass if you could get there by public transport? Would they provide free transport if we went for a school in the other LA? (guessing not).

I think I am going to spend the next 6 months stressing over this.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

That's quite a good idea Ragged!

I do have one local acquaintance, but her DC is younger so I don't know if school is on the horizon for her yet. I will ask her though, maybe some of the nursery mums will have older children.

If only I'd known before I could have asked her to go to a couple of open days for me.

[TwoOddSocks]

Starting in yr1 at age 5 will be what the local authority and the school want you to do (it's starting in reception that would mean you have a fight on your hands) so you'll have no issue at all there and you'll be entitled to 15 hours in pre school a week until he turns 5. I'm not sure where you're moving from but it's worth remembering that even in reception they introduce homework, phonics and writing so unless you cover these at home he'll be a little behind and one of the youngest in the class. Your school should of course offer support to catch up etc.

[prh47bridge]

Would they take into account how long it would take by public transport

Given that a 45 minute journey takes us into free transport territory it would be whatever form of transport the LA will provide.

Does "council must provide free transport" mean they would send a taxi

It varies from LA to LA but at primary school most would send a taxi.

Would they provide free transport if we went for a school in the other LA

If that is the nearest school with places available they must provide free transport regardless of whether the school is in your LA or another LA. However, if you choose to ignore the nearest school with places and send your child somewhere else you are not entitled to free transport regardless of the distance involved.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

Thank you Prh47 that makes it a lot clearer.

And thank you TwoOddSocks, I didn't realise we could get preschool funding, that would be brilliant.
We were originally scheduled to return to the UK 2 years from now, and I was assuming I would have to teach DS2 to read and write at home anyway, so that isn't a big problem ( at homework in Reception though!)

[cartoonsaveme]

Not necessarily home work in reception but definately phonics and maths. There are loads of home ed resources however. Reception is a brilliant intro to school life so don't under estimate it

[PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom]

Another thing to consider is turnover.

Imagine a situation where you are offered a place for your son in y3 at a school you are happy with, but reception is full and they can't immediately offer a place.

The waiting list for places is based on the normal admission criteria. In most cases, siblings will be quite high up this list (you can check on the local authority website). It could easily be the case that, once you have a child in the school, you jump up the waiting list to one of the top spots.

If that school is a three form entry school in an area with quite a lot of movement then you stand a lot better chance of this place on the waiting list quickly converting into a place at the school. In a single intake village school with little movement, you can sit at place no. 1 for years.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

Thanks, very good point about turnover.

I have now read the latest Ofsted reports of the local schools, and none of them seem very good at all - poor teaching and lots of behaviour problems , so now I am wobbling, and wondering if we should try and buy somewhere in a different area.

But there'd still be no guarantee of places anyway. Better a poor school close by than a poor school miles away. Not sure what to do now.

[sakura]

I returned from abroad at Christmas. I contacted the schools by e-mail over the Xmas holidays in the area where I would be moving to. I took a quick look at the Ofsted reports before applying for them.
One school replied. Luckily it was the closest to where I was living. If the school has places they will tell you and it is at the discretion of the head whether you will be able to enrol your children. They will help with all paperwork.
You do need to show proof of address (bank statement etc).
I think the fact you are hoping for the closest school will work in your favour as your children will be prioritized.
Good Luck.

[mummytime]

How old are the Ofsted reports? Are you moving to a big city or a village?

Ofsted actually have become much more results driven recently, so the tone of the inspections can seem a bit negative at times.

Why don't you post either here with the area in your title or on the local board to find out the gossip on the ground about schools - you can name change if you want.

I also wouldn't worry too much about your children being behind, almost all children I have seen come into schools have adapted very well - even when they arrive with little/no English.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

Ofsted reports are from 2014, so pretty up-to-date. Schools were rated good or outstanding when we left too!
I am much more worried about behavioural problems than academic results tbh.

It is a small town (3 large primary schools, one secondary), quite a rural area on the whole , but close to a fairly big town - DH reckons we should try to move to the town.

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

Sakura, I don't know when you came back but it's no longer at the discretion of the head.

OP, contact the local authority to better understand which schools are full and which have most movement.

[prh47bridge]

it is at the discretion of the head whether you will be able to enrol your children

Some heads still seem to think they have discretion in such matters. They don't. All applicants must be treated equally and the Admissions Code must be followed. The head cannot pick and choose which applicants to admit.

I think the fact you are hoping for the closest school will work in your favour as your children will be prioritized

There is no additional priority for your nearest school. If you live nearer than other applicants you are likely to get priority. But if someone else lives nearer the school than you they are likely to get priority even if it isn't their nearest school.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

Sorry to come back to this after a while.

Can I just check one more thing - will our LA only offer school places in that LA?

Supposing there was a nearer school with places in the adjoining LA - would our LA offer that to us, or would they always offer one that was in their own LA, even if it was further away. (I think these two LAs do have some reciprocal arrangements with each other, and we are very close to the border.)

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

I believe the usual approach is to apply via your own LA for any schools in a neighbouring LA.

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

Ah, sorry, PRH said that!

I think if you put the other school on your application form and they have spaces but the ones in your LA don't, you would get them. If your reception child got a space you might then be in a good position for your year 3 child on the waiting list or to appeal.

[ConfusedOverSchools]

Sorry, I meant if we didn't want the one in the neighbouring LA, would we be "safe" if we didn't live in that LA.

Geographically our nearest school to our house (it isn't our catchment school though, and isn't actually in the same town as us) is Ofsted rated "Inadequate". But it is in the neighbouring LA.

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

No, I don't think you are "safe"! Ultimately if there are no schools in a reasonable distance with a space, the LA will invoke the fair access protocol to compel the school or schools most able to take your children to create spaces. If there was a nearby school that actually had spaces. I doubt FAP. Could be invoked.