I need help re in year transfer and infant class size appeal - any experience out there??

[anxiouspotentialmover]

Hi there

We are relocating 115 miles over the summer and we are due to be in our new location for the beginning of the new school term. My DD will be going from Reception to Y1.

We applied to our preferred school - a Roman Catholic Primary School within a mile of our new house and we have been turned down because the class size is already at 30.

My DD is baptised, is currently at a lovely catholic shool, we are practising Catholics and attend mass. We are gutted that she is not going to be able to continue down the path that we started and that she will miss out on making her sacraments with her friends. Although we have not lived in the area as a family unit, we were married in the Parish Church and have strong links to the local community through my parents and my family. It has been our plan and (at times we thought impossible pipe dream) to move from the big urban sprawl where we currently live but we are really struggling with this.

What I want to understand is whether we have any chance whatsoever of winning an appeal if we decide to go down the route of trying to appeal or whether we just have to accept this decision.

There is one other Catholic school in the town but it is miles from where we live and has the same issue with the class size.

In the entire vicinity (7 mile radius) there are 2 places available. One is nearby in a non demoniational school with a poor reputation and one is in a village 5 miles out which has a good reputation but is also non demoninational and will be a massive PITA to get to and from and the roads become treacherous in bad weather.

I would like to try and give DD some certainty. If we have to go for the village school because we have no chance of winning an appeal then I'd rather try and accept it and start to get DD used to the idea of where she'll be come September.

To add to the equation we have an 18 month old who will almost certainly get a place at the local catholic school when she enters reception but I can't fathom how we will manage going to two separate schools for 3 years as we both work full time so the drop offs and pick ups are difficult to manage between us!


I feel so so guilty to be putting DD through this upheaval in any event but I cannot contemplate getting her started in one school and then move her elsewhere.

Sorry for the massive essay -just trying to get all the details down. I've been up in the night crying for 2 nights (which is probably ridiculous but under a lot of stress with a house sale and purchase, negotiating terms on 2 new jobs and now this!). I want to do best by my daughter.

PS - thanks if you have made it this far!

[anxiouspotentialmover]

Sorry about this shameless bump.

[Heels99]

What are your grounds for appeal though?

[prh47bridge]

I'm afraid your chances of winning an appeal in an infant class size case are minimal. You can only win if the decision to refuse admission was irrational or if there was a problem with the admissions process that denied your daughter a place that was rightfully hers. That is highly unlikely for an in-year transfer. You can still try. You may strike it lucky. But it is a long shot.

Even if you fail you may still be able to transfer your daughter to this school at a later date. Also, once your older daughter enters Y3 appeals become easier to win because the infant class size limit no longer applies. You may therefore be able to get her into this school before your youngest starts school even if you have to accept a different school in the short term.

[anxiouspotentialmover]

I think the only grounds that we would be able to rely on are:

d) children admitted after an independent appeals panel upholds an appeal; or

e) children who move into the area outside the normal admissions round for whom there is no available school within reasonable distance

My reading of limb e) of the regs is that because they have offered another school then we can't rely on it. The education office have however suggested that I appeal on the specific grounds that we require a catholic school and that is the grounds on which the appeal panel should consider the appeal.

It's not clear how anybody relies on d) because I don't understand on what grounds the independent panel can uphold an appeal or otherwise.

It is very confusing. The parish priest has told us to appeal but I have no idea whether it is just compeltely pointless.

[anxiouspotentialmover]

Thanks for the responses.

[anxiouspotentialmover]

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it. May I ask one last question. Do you know if I can accept another school place whilst any appeal plays out (on the basis it feels lile we have such a slim chance of success on appeal)?

I have tried and failed to find the answer.

Thanks again.

[admission]

You can accept a school place and go to as many appeals as you wish to. The only stipulation is that you can only have one appeal per school per academic year unless there are substantial changes in your circumstances.

Whilst I would not say you have a high chance of success, there is a recent Local Government Ombudsman notice (May 2014) that actually may be of help to you. I hesitate to say how much help because it is so new and many LAs and schools (as catholic schools are their own admission authority) do not know about it.

In summary and it is complicated, at present schools say that the class has 30 in it, therefore it is infant class size regs and we cannot admit. What the LGO notice is saying is that for parents moving into an area, the question the LA should be asking is whether the school can admit you under any of the allowed categories as an excepted pupil. For you that is whether there are any appropriate schools within reasonable distance. The admission authority will argue that the other non-faith schools in the area are alternatives and therefore this is not permitted. My question would be surely it should be whether there is an appropriate faith school within reasonable distance, not any school. The other issue is that there is no definition of reasonable distance - many schools would say 2 miles for an infant as this the distance at which free transport is usually given but it is up to the individual admission authority and appeal panel to decide this.

The other point is that even if the decision is by the admission authority that they could consider the request for a place as an excepted pupil, they can still say no because of classroom sizes or other such reasons and it would then go to appeal as an ordinary case rather than a infant class size case.

Sorry said it was complicated but my feeling is that you should appeal and make sure that the admission authority know about this recent note from the LGO well in advance of the appeal hearing.

[anxiouspotentialmover]

Thank you tiggytape, prh and admission. These responses are unbelievably helpful and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. I will look at this LGO note - as I'm preparing the paperwork over the next couple of days and I will definitely refer to it.

It really is very kind of you all. I feel a lot better already. Not that I think I have any greater chance of success or not but that I understand the process a little more and I don't feel that it would be a complete waste of time to put us all through the process of appeal.

[Bramshott]

I would move, start your DD at the village school, and go on the waiting list for the Catholic school. Lots of children move schools during primary and most settle well. You will have time (a little!) if you get to the top of the waiting list and are offered a place at the Catholic school to decide whether at that stage you'd rather move your DD or leave her where she is. The answer to that might well depend on how long she's been in the village school, how settled she seems there, and how the journey is working out for you. Myself, I wouldn't bother appealing, but there's no harm in giving it a go I guess.

[NynaevesSister]

I would accept Village school, go on waiting lists and also appeal particularly looking into the grounds that Admission mentioned. You have nothing to lose by appealing although it takes an emotional toll and time. So you may want to consider this.

I fail to see how not being at Catholic school affects her first holy communion. Where I am all the children go through the church not the school and the first communicants all attended Saturday lessons. Is it different in your parish?

[Mumto3dc]

I would just add, have you spoken to parents with dc at the local school?
Schools can have bad reps due to ofsted ratings or other issues but still be a lovely setting.

(My dcs school is in special measures and hasn't had a great rep for years but is a lovely school with lovely kids and both boys are v happy and progressing there.)

Also consider the disadvantage of being in a reception class that is overcrowded if she was accepted in your preferred school.

[Mumto3dc]

Sorry, you said yr1 not reception.

[anxiouspotentialmover]

Thanks everyone. I've got a way forward. Take village school place and appeal and see where it takes us. I explained to my Dd that there are 2 lovely schools that she might be lucky enough to go to but that one is very full and the grown ups have to think about whether they can make space for another child and it might take a long time before they tell us the answer.

The first holy communion point is that in our current parish and our new parish, the children prepare for it with their classmates (although not all in school time) and there are special school masses to celebrate it. I feel sad that DD will have to do it on her own and not celebrate it with her friends - as even if they were to somehow include her she won't know the others if she's at the village school.

But we are where we are and I don't want to feel down about it as it's very important that my Dd only feels positive and excited about where she wil go.

I do appreciate you taking the time to comment.

[Elisabetta2214]

I am interested in this thread as I am in a very similar position, the only different being that my daughter goes into y3 in September. We have moved into the area and are on the waiting list for 3 catholic schools. At present my daughter is at her old school which is a 40 minute drive away. I would like to appeal to our nearest catholic school as the travelling is very hard - especially as I have an 18 month old baby in tow. Are the grounds for appeal set by the school if it is VA? Do you know, admission?

[Elisabetta2214]

Hi - I've just got back from holiday (without internet ) and read your post - thanks for the info and advice, Tiggytape, it's really helpful. The point about my daughter needing to settle into the area and make friends is very true and important, though I of course think 40 mins 4 times a day is not reasonable so a shame that I won't convince a panel on those grounds.
Do you think it's worth appealing or should I just sit on the waiting list? Do I run the risk of annoying the head and governors by appealing?

[prh47bridge]

You won't annoy people by appealing. I would go for it if I were you. At worst you will be in the same position as now. At best you will win a place.

[Sunflower123456]

It's certainly worth the appeal. Before the hearing, search the internet and visit the school to get some back ground information, eg will the school expand, what is the length of the waiting list and the rate of pupil turn over etc. During the hearing, stay calm and put across as much positive (and negative) arguments as possible, eg you can get to the school on time every day, faith etc. Also, try to counter argue the reasons for rejection from the council, which will be sent to you prior to the appeal. We managed to win our in-term appeal in February. Good luck and best wishes.

[prh47bridge]

what is the length of the waiting list and the rate of pupil turn over

These things have no bearing on the appeal at all. The panel is not allowed to admit on the basis that the rate of pupil turnover means it will be ok, for example.

you can get to the school on time every day

Again, not relevant to the appeal. School places are not awarded for good behaviour.

try to counter argue the reasons for rejection from the council

Strictly speaking the reason for rejection is that there are no places available. You can't counter argue that. What you can counter is the school's arguments about the prejudice that will be caused by admitting another pupil.

[Elisabetta2214]

As it is a (catholic) VA school which handles it's own admissions - who will the appeal panel be made up of? Presumably it will not be handled by the council?

[Elisabetta2214]

The official waiting list for y3 is long - we are number 13! But the admissions person said that all the others had been on the list since reception intake and so may well not be interested in taking up an offer now ( ie well settled into other schools now)

[eddiemairswife]

Several times I have seen a Travelling time of up to 45 mins mentioned. Where did that come from? I know about the walking distance of up to 2 miles for under 8s. And does the 45 mins refer to walking or driving or both?

[Elisabetta2214]

For me, it is a 40 minute drive or 45 minutes by public transport (2 trains )