Renfrewshire Council cutting primary teacher time by 10%

[MrsBalfy]

Is anyone aware of what is happening to education in Renfrewshire? There has been a policy agreed to take away 2.5hrs a week of the current 25hrs that primary children have. The council have yet to define the job descriptions of these people and have yet to place an advert for recruiting them and yet the pilot is due to start in April.

Can anyone give us some advice how we can oppose this, I don't want my children's education to be decreased like this, I want them to have just as good an education as all of the other councils in Scotland.

[Inchinman]

Another shocking enditement of the failings and mismanagement of the Chief Executive and various Heads of departments within Renfrewshire District Council, and I put the Head of Education, Mr Naylor, at the top of this list! Yet again we find he has disregard for our young peoples education and for their parents/carers Input & concerns, taking stealth action in order not to have any communication with us, the parents who find themselves, yet again, being kicked squarely in the teeth by an executive who's only concern is his budget!

[MrsBalfy]

Meeting 4 February, 5.00pm, St Mirin's Church Hall, Incle Street Paisley. The Scottish Labour Leader, Iain Gray MSP, is in Renfrewshire on Friday and has arranged a meeting so that he can hear the views of parents on the Council's proposed cuts in education. All welcome.

[redpanda13]

Is it the 18th? In the gazette it said the 19th for the march. Just want to make sure I turn up on the right day! Car broke down with impeccable timing so I could not make the meeting in my DD's school.

[greedychops]

I think if you look behind the headlines a bit, it actually looks like a good idea. The time is going to be used to have people from outside the school take classes in their specialist subject, like PE taken by people with a sports degree and citizenship classes etc.

Like it or not, council budgets have been slashed by a massive amount, so at least this is one scheme which should help improve the overall education of children, rather than just having to cut something completely.

In secondary schools, they already get outsiders to teach classes. My husband goes in to teach Social Education type classes but he's a youth worker rather than a teacher, but can bring a more practical side, or just a different side of things to the pupils. They react and learn differently from how they learn with teachers, but it broadens their education rather than harming it.

[PurpleRabbit]

But whether you like it or not, councils have got to save money, and since education makes up nearly half of council spending it can't be exempt from cuts. As I understand it Renfrewshire has cut a smaller percentage from education that from any other council department.

What is your alternative to this Euphemia - close schools, increase class sizes, etc? Just look at Glasgow, where they've opted for school closures instead.

[boofle]

I actually think this might be better for my children than other cuts - being realistic I know that cut have to be made. Don't get me wrong, I would be happier if there were no cuts at all but I prefer this to the possibility that their school would be closed. If schools have to be closed would more teachers not lose their jobs - or would they just be placed in another school - I'm not sure about this but maybe somebody can tell me. I can understand Euphemia's worries but I do not want my council tax to go up - We dont have much money left at all after we pay bills and if the tax went up it would eat into the very little money we have to do things with the children..There must be other parents like me who see the point here of making the best of a bad global situation?

[under]

Teachers have had an increase in salary,is it value for money!I have a child in education and I question the amount of time spent learning maths and language vs other nonsense they learn.Instead of teachers complaining about 2.5hrs with non qualified staff,I want to know what teachers do for the full week.Time these teachers were assessed to see if they are qualified. Children leaving the education system with no qualifications is a disgrace and yet no one is held responsible!Teachers are in a safe job,guaranteed income and pension scheme. Am sure a lot of us would love that position..Think they should get on with it and once in a while look out and see whats happening in the real world

[VivaLeBeaver]

So the poor old teachers will be having their salries cut by 2.5hrs worth of wages a week (more than a day a month)? And already people are teacher bashing? Its not the teachers' fault!

I'm not a teacher by the way.

[Gem21]

In response to the comment by 'Under', I came from a job in the real world because I wanted to become a teacher. I do not have a safe job and my income is not guaranteed. I thought that I worked hard in the real world, but I work even harder as a teacher and I'm glad to do so when I see children make progress. Most teachers work well in excess of the 35 hours that they are paid for.

[Carry02]

C'mon Everyone this is not about teachers this is about our Children and who is going to teach them - if the Council have no idea how are the parents supposed to know. This may not affect people without children or people whose kids have moved onto secondary but this is a start for Renfrewshire Council - it may be 2.5 hrs (1 year out of 7 of the primary education) but what if next year they need to cut another 2.5 hrs - where does it stop. Do NOT accept this and show your support at the Rally on 19th February 2011 at 11am - Paisley Town Hall.

[boofle]

I am quite disappointed that this discussion has turned into a witch hunt - Euphemia, I turned to this site and discussion thread as I really disliked the tone of the Facebook page and wasn't much happier with the Renfrewshireparents site. I was advised to have a look here and was really encouraged until now...the debate has largely been very constructive and intelligent, albeit lively! The jury is still out for me on this issue, but I am becoming more and more discouraged by the level of hatred and poison spilling from some parents - quite frankly, it is worrying me and I am concerned that my children will start to get frightened by the playground chat, but to date this is still the best site and so here I will stay for the time being!
I have looked into this issue now, in some depth, over the last couple of days. I phoned my councillor and spoke to him about my concerns and to be honest, some questions I asked him he was quite vague with his answers, but some of what I had been told was complete twaddle - confirmed today by the letter brought home by my child. I was also under the impression that council managers were to receive a big pay rise of 23%, so I challenged him, only to be told that this happened about 2 yrs ago along with a management restructure that removed a layer of management, hence more responsibility and more money to bring their wages in line with other councils throughout scotland. To be honest, I have been going around attacking these managers thinking that this was a recent event, without knowing the full circumstances - he also told me that they agreed LAST YEAR to take a pay freeze, another fact I was unaware of. Still annoys me though that they get paid the amount that they do, but I suppose someone in the government needs to sort that out at a national level - if it is within their power - I don't know if they can. Why was I told this as if it was directly connected with this proposal, and by a prominent member of parliament? I am quite angry about that.
Anyway, some parents I have spoken to are still unconvinced but are waiting to see how the pilot goes - they are not against the programme - YET! - but they may be afterwards depending on the success. They, like me, are not convinced that this will definetely be a bad thing but are hedging their bets - I have watched tv, read newspapers and listened to educational professionals talk on this matter and not all are against - I simply, at this point, cannot bring myself to be totally opposed - although I still have an open mind and could, quite easily with the right information, be persuaded!!!!

[Carry02]

I agree with Euphemia - if the Council are allowed to railroad this proposal through and parents accept yet more being taken from the Education our children receive (lets not forget the teachers already lost, classroom assistants, admin staff etc etc) they will continue and who knows what they will do next, maybe next year they will taken another 2.5 hrs. This has all come about since the SNP/Lib Dem took over in Renfrewshire Council since 2007.
I do not want my children being taught by someone with just a few weeks of training. I have been told it might not even be the same person who teaches them every week, how unsettling will this be for the children - adjusting to new people and their methods only for them to disappear. The GTCS have told Renf Council they do not support their proposals and they are the professional body for teaching in Scotland - I think we should listen to them.

[PurpleRabbit]

Euphemia and Carry02 - have you read the council letter sent home with primary children this week? Pupils will not end up with 4.5 hours of PE per week - PE will be planned for the class taking account of what is already being delivered that week through the enrichment programme, so if a class has 2 hours of PE in a week through the enrichment programme they won't have their 2 hours with the teacher that week. A team of enrichment staff will be allocated to each school and will work in that school for the whole session, so the children will be able to get to know the staff at their school.

I can't understand the anger and venom around this issue - obviously it would be great if no cuts ever had to be made, but given the financial situation, I don't think this is a bad proposal. I think my son will benefit from the input of people with different experiences and interests from his usual teacher, and will enjoy new activities which might not otherwise have ben offered. As far as I can see this will broaden his education, and given that money has to be saved from the education budget this is surely better than the alternative of closing schools.

Boofle, I agree that the personal nature of some of the debate on this issue is very disappointing. Whilst I appreciate that many parents disagree with the proposals there is no need to attack individuals - the people proposing this are doing their best to deal with a very difficult budget situation.

[Carry02]

PurpleRabbit - I did read the letter from the Council and it was obviously worded by the "nice" Council who have thought "oops, and we thought we could just do this with no consultation and the parents and teachers would accept it." Well I am sorry I do not accept it. I have a child in P5 and one in P2 and have noticed a real change in the running of the school due to the lack of classroom assistants and probationary teachers having to leave mid way through a term due to lack of funds and generally the school being more and more stretched. So I don't believe we should accept that its ok to take more away from our childrens education. I am well aware that there will be cuts but I for one would be willing to accept a small increase in Council Tax rather than cuts which affect education - these kids are the future and they deserve the best education we can give them. Please also note I have never personally attacked anyone on this forum, I have expressed my view which I am entitled to and that has not changed.

[JR61]

Cuts will be made this year and the next 2-3 years to come. Education is 40% plus of the council budget so it is bound to be looked at.
The McCrone agreement that was forced on Scottish Local Govt is up for review this year thank goodness.y

Our children require 25 hours per week but teachers only teach 22.5 hours per week. Teachers have more that double the number of holidays than any other public service worker whether they be employed in councils or the NHS.
Makes a lot of sense i don't think.

This proposal is one way of council's making efficiencies in our education system. Other possibilities:

Cut Social Work budgets
Don't repair or roads
Close our parks
Don't maintain our council housing

No?. I don't fancy those options either.

What about;

*Bring teachers holidays in line with all other public service workers.

*Teachers to teach 25 hours per week and use the reduced holiday time to do their prep and planning for the term ahead.

If we want our schools to be run exclusively by qualified teachers then let them do it as suggested.I am not convinced that is necessary as there are many talented folk out there who are unemployed for a variety of reasons whether it be cuts in employment or bringing up young families. They are more than capable of supplementing the 22.5 teaching time with 2.5 hours of quality time on general topics such as music, drama and art at half the cost.

Finally,all my friends and family whether employed in public or private business as professionals routinely work an additional 5/10 hours a week unpaid to keep up. Teachers work hard but so do many other professionals without the perks of of the lengthy holidays and ring fenced prep/planning time that our teachers receive.

[midnightexpress]

"all my friends and family whether employed in public or private business as professionals routinely work an additional 5/10 hours a week unpaid to keep up. Teachers work hard but so do many other professionals without the perks of of the lengthy holidays and ring fenced prep/planning time that our teachers receive."

More fool them. TBH, that is a problem of the friends and family concerned, or their managers, not a problem with teachers. Planning and preparation is part of the job, not time the teachers spend sitting around drinking tea in the staff room. I would rather my children were taught by well-prepared staff than harrassed, overtired teachers.

And the holidays question is always trotted out in these discussions. If it's such a great perk, why are you not queuing up to become a teacher?

FWIW, I think if such swingeing cuts need to be made, that considering raising the school start age to 6 should be given serious consideration. At least there is a modicum of research evidence to suggest it might be beneficial to children.

Love the phrase 'enrichment'. WHAT a load of cynical bollocks.

[boofle]

Carrie
I wasn't aware that any classroom assistants had left the service yet - I know some are leaving this year, but not aware of shortage now
You said 'I do not want my children being taught by someone with just a few weeks of training. I have been told it might not even be the same person who teaches them every week, how unsettling will this be for the children - adjusting to new people and their methods only for them to disappear' - I have heard this statement quite a lot now but cannot epathise - my child in in P6 and has had THREE different class teachers since the summer, how unsettling has this been?
Also, parents seem to have forgotten that teachers do not seem to have a problem with 'unqualified' people looking after children when they are happy to 'pop out' of class 'for a minute' leaving the children with a P7 pupil! IT HAPPENS!!! If you know any classroom assistants, ask them what goes on during school hours. This does not mean that I don't respect teachers, I do, very much, but lets not pretend that everything is already perfect in the school world.
I do not mean to offend you with these comments - I am simply playing devils advocate as I have another opinion on this matter and some of the individual issues raised.
P.S I have left a question for the First Minister who is joining Mumsnet on Tuesday - maybe we will get some clarity then on the council tax issue.