streaming

[PocketRocket1]

DS just going into year 3. There are three classes in the year and last year they were split for maths into a top, middle and bottom set. I don't think they are doing that this year. I'm concerned that the more able children won't get pushed/challenged. In the classroom they are seated on tables according to ability but even so I am quite concerned. Should I be?

[mummytime]

No! Although research has shown that mixed ability groups if working collaboratively do best. The top have to work to be able to explain what they know to the less able, so it deepens their knowledge. The less able get others trying to explain. Of course this also depends on being assessed on what your whole group knows, and anyone might be asked questions.
But if it is done badly it is a disaster.

[minimathsmouse]

Mixed ability: Yes if its done badly its a disaster. We disovered from very unhappy, frustrated a bored maths mad son, that he was the class TA for maths. He was set for maths but once he had finished his work, which wasn't challenging him, he was set to work helping the less able. Whilst it gave him some sense of pride, he was left feeling neglected. He stated quite firmly that he wasn't learning anything new and that he could learn more at home with a text book!

Incidentally we went into the school today, where he announced in a loud voice that he felt let down

My feeling is that maths and English should be set accross the entire school accoring to ability and not age! Radical maybe, but achievable with the right will. In four years in state ed, I have heard every conceivable excuse for poor differentiation.

[minimathsmouse]

Oh, sorry Pocket Rocket, rant over! Is your son very able at maths and working at a much higher level? I think if he has been assessed at working way above his peers, you may have a problem. If its a sub level or two, the teacher will find differentiating much easier. I would think its easier for a teacher if all the children can be set into groups. Its obviously much less likely to work for your son if he is significantly in advance of his peers.

[brassband]

You say there are 3 classes per year.Do you think the classes could be streamed? eg your son's class is the top stream?
I don't really get why you are concerned if they are seated on ability tables.

[CardyMow]

My DS1 is very quite able in maths, and there is only one form entry in his year. They are not setted, and althoguh the teacher is trying to differentiate the work for my DS1, by giving him Y5 worksheets instead of Y4, it's still far too easy. His h/wk this weekend is x10 and x100, numbers like 361 etc. Work he does at home with me, correctly: square root of 81, 10 cubed add 10 cubed, (48-2)/2= etc. He gets sooo bored, and often finishes his classwork that is meant to be an hours numeracy work in 10-15 minutes, then he starts messing around for want of anything else to do. Which is just as bad for the other dc in the class as it is for him, but how many 8yo boys can sit quietly, doing nothing, for 45-50 minutes?.

[IndigoBell]

loudlass - your school sounds absolutely appalling. If he is finished his work why don't they give him other stuff to do? (Of course why don't they give him properly differentiated work in the first place?)

This is not a problem with setting or streaming - it's an incompetant teacher.

When my boy finishes his work he's encouraged to do things like tangram puzzles. But to your son to be quiet with no work to do is absolute madness.

You really do need to address this and other issues you have posted about with your school.

[montblanche]

The great advantage with ability setting is that the 'top' children don't have to be 'left with tangrams' if they finish, because, with the greater opportunity to stretch the children, you are rarely left with children who are finished.

In a top set, your work may be differentiated between number lines and vertical calculation with carrying, and in the lower set between adding to ten and number lines (overlapping somewhere in between). Differentiation between adding to ten using practical equipment and vertical calculation, catering for all points in between, is really difficult.

IMO setting gives the teacher more opportunity to spend time with the lower achievers (most of our TAs support the lower sets) and to stretch the higher achievers within the learning objective. Our groups remain very fluid, and the sets' objectives cover the same concepts.

I know this goes against current theory, but I also know that with the huge range of ability within my class (adding to 10 to adding within thousands), I would find planning a nightmare if we didn't set. I also know that this says what an imcompetent teacher I am........ but better to set than to differentiate badly?

[montblanche]

IMcompetent?? incompetent!

[IndigoBell]

MountBlanche - It doesn't sound like you're an incompetent teacher, I'm sorry if I gave that impression. You clearly differentiate properly across the class.

I was saying the opposite that if a teacher doesn't differentiate they are not doing their job properly.

And also that there are many diff ways of differntiating - and being in a top set or top stream still does not guarantee that the work is properly differentiated.

[CardyMow]

Indigo - It's just an incompetent school all round, none of the teachers differentiate effectively, either for dc that are ahead or dc that are behind, but unfortunately there are no schools at all in my town with spaces in Y1, other than this school! I can get DS1 in about 3 other local schools, but can't move DS2 anywhere within 30 miles. And I don't drive.

[IndigoBell]

Loudlass - then you need to put them both on the waiting list for every school and wait for a place to come up or move DS1 first, which will give DS2 sibling priority - ie move him to the top of the waiting list. And then endure trying to get kids to two schools at the same time while a place comes up.

We did that, and it took a term for DD to get a place. But as everyone on our street went to her school we just had to get them to take her while we took DS's to the new school.

And it was totally worth it!

[CardyMow]

They wont PUT DS2 on the waiting lists! And it's an impossibility to get 2 dc to different schools as I don't drive for medical reasons, and all the schools are in different directions, and far enough away to need public transport to get to when DS2 has muscle problems and chronic asthma! Believe me, I try every term for the last 5 *** years to get them on the waiting lists, first it was because DD's year was full (before she went up to secondary), now it's because DS2's year is full. Plus none of the schools will accept a dc with SN (that's not statemented, is on SA+) on the wait list. I just do much more with them at home to try to make up for the crappy improper teaching at their school.

[IndigoBell]

Oh, I'm so sorry. Are you sure it's legal to not put children on the waiting list? Especially to not put a child on the waiting list because he has SN? I would be very very surpised if that was legal.

The whole point of a waiting list is because the year is full. Very peculiar.

Sorry you're having such a tough time of it. Sounds absolutely rotten.

A lot of LEAs have changed their admission process this year. Now all admissions are managed through the LEA and not through the individual schools.

There is no way it is legal to discriminate against a kid because they have SN.

[mummytime]

Are you in the UK? Have you talked to your local parent partnership? And the LEA. Anyone can go on the waiting list, they can't discriminate on the grounds of SN. They can't choose who to admit on those grounds either.

[ClaraRenee]

I agree with minimathsmouse and montblanche. My DDs school set by ability across yrs 5/6 and 3/4 and 1/2. My DD in yr 5 is in a literacy group with yr 6 and enjoys this as she isn't bored. As a teacher, as children move up the school the ability range widens, so teaching in ability groups for numeracy and literacy targets ability and children stretched more as they are challenged. The best schools Ive worked in ( secondary),are the ones that group by ability. I wouldn't be bothered by ability grouping, I would prefer it for all abilities.

[spanieleyes]

We've just this year started setting across classes for maths-we are a small school with mixed age classes. last year my maths class varied in ability from 2c up to 6C and , with the best will in the world, ability tables and a fantastic TA it was still a nightmare to plan a lesson correctly that could stretch my very able children who were solving algebraic equations whilst still engaging children who struggled to recall mumber bonds to 10. Now my maths class extends from a much more reasonable 3B up to 6B, I still need to differentiate madly but at least we are all roughly capable of understanding what I'm talking about!