Which of these is correct?

[WalkingThePlank]

Which if these sentences is correct and can you explain why:

The team was happy that it won the cup.
The team was happy that they won the cup.

TIA.

[fairyelephantswellies]

The team was happy that it won the cup.
'The team' is singular, although made up of several players. You could say 'the team members were happy that they won the cup'

[WalkingThePlank]

As I thought.

DC had a homework in which she had to fill in gaps. One sentence was 'The team was happy that won the cup.

DC put 'it'. Teacher marked it as wrong so I queried it and I had the following response:

'Having consulted the literacy coordinator, team is a collective noun, therefore 'they' should be used.'

Do I go back to her again? Clearly if it says 'the team WAS', the assumption is that the team is singular.

[fairyelephantswellies]

I'm with you, if it said 'was' rather than 'were', it follows that 'it' was happy...

[CuriousOranj]

The team were happy that they won the cup would be ok too.
Was goes with it. Were goes with they. Mixing them together doesn't work.

[DadDadDad]

I think arguments could be had on either side, although I don't think the teacher's response really clears it up. BUT, I don't think the teacher can mark "it" as wrong - it is surely grammatically acceptable (especially with a singular "was") - even if you think "they" is better.

[KatherinaMinola]

What Curious said - you shouldn't change the number halfway through the sentence. If you're taking team to be a collective noun then it is a collective noun all the way through the sentence.

[DadDadDad]

But collective nouns can be treated as singular or plural depending on context, so saying it's a collective noun doesn't clear up the issue.

We had a discussion about collective nouns on this thread (5 or 10 posts in where the discussion broadened out from the original question):
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pedants_corner/a2226925-Are-or-Is

One point from that thread:
The Guardian's style guide says "Nouns such as committee, family, government, jury, squad and team take a singular verb or pronoun when thought of as a single unit, but a plural verb or pronoun when thought of as a collection of individuals." Implication: collective nouns can be an "it" or a "they".

Do Guardian editors outrank literacy coordinators?

[WalkingThePlank]

Thank you all.

I spoke again to the teacher. Apparently there had been a 20 minute meeting about this point. The conclusion was that 'the team' is plural because it is made up of lots of people but that one couldn't say 'the team were' so it is correct for the collective noun to have a singular verb and a plural pronoun. Apparently this is proved correct as every other child wrote 'they'.

I just don't agree so I've had to send an email to the Literacy Coordinator asking her to provide me with a link to an official source that confirms that a collective noun would use both the singular verb form and plural pronoun within the same sentence. I may have paraphrased DadDadDad's Guardian quote.

I feel quite embarrassed about this as it is such a small issue but I don't want my daughter learning incorrect grammar.

[DadDadDad]

I share your annoyance that the school won't accept valid alternatives. Saying a collective noun can't take a plural verb is rubbish.

You can see what Oxford Dictionaries thinks (or at least, one of its members of staff):
blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/09/agreement-over-collective-nouns/

Or you can see how it's used by professional writers:

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31118450 - the BBC says:
But the team are confident any broken components can be replaced...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11348778/David-Cameron-meets-Barack-Obama-are-British-voters-impressed.html - the Telegraph says:
Nonetheless, the Cameron team are probably justified in feeling a bit pleased with the trip. (A non-sporting example)

(As an aside, I notice that above I unconsciously treated "Oxford Dictionaries" [the company, not a pile of books] as a singular! ).

[MissSingerbrains]

Have you had a reply yet, OP?

Lol at the 20-minute meeting

[Showy]

I am glad that you haven't let it go. When using collective nouns, I tend to choose based on context or what I'm trying to imply. So I might say "Having worked hard all year, the team was happy that it won the cup" or "despite each member having different priorities, the team were happy they had won the cup". I would always be consistent with the singular/plural as relevant however.

I would be interested to know the conclusion of it all.

[WalkingThePlank]

No response so far. I will chase though after half term.

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

Was goes with it. Were goes with they. Mixing them together doesn't work.

I agree. I'm American and in AmE, there is a preference for the singular verbs and pronouns with collective nouns, but whichever is used, the noun, the verb, and the pronoun should all agree.

[Pipbin]

Does the same go for 'staff'?

Although I'm sure it is correct, 'the staff is helpful and polite' looks wrong. I want to say 'the staff are helpful and polite'.

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

I have to write about staff doing all manner of things in my work. As an American, I usually say "the staff is" but sometimes I say "staff are," depending on the context. Either is right, as long as those verbs and pronouns agree.

When writing about emotions and attitudes that people as individuals have, I would tend toward "are." (Our staff are very excited about this new training opportunity.) When writing about something that is happening to the staff as a collective, I would use "is." (Our staff is being trained in how to use the new protocol.)

[DrankSangriaInThePark]

Both the examples in the OP are correct.

Check out the example using team here:

www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv358.shtml

There appears to be no problem in using both singular and plural verb forms in the same sentence.

If you google "Collective Nouns singular or plural Cambridge English" there is quite a succinct academic paper pdf as the first hit.

Language learners like rigid rules, it makes life so much easier if we can say "x always needs Y". Unfortunately language isn't like that, and we have to say "X usually needs Y, but sometimes Z is OK too".

As far as the OP's daughter and literacy co-ordinator go, both were correct. I'd say "the team was happy that they won the cup" sounds more natural though.

[DrankSangriaInThePark]

Longman-Pearson, (the grammar books I tend to recommend to my students) also concur/concurs

"You'll probably be right whichever you choose"

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

That is a helpful link, but several examples seem a bit clunky to me, but that may be because of my ingrained AmE preference for the singular. That United Nations one in particular sounds awkward to me; I would say "members" rather than referring to the UN as "they."

[DrankSangriaInThePark]

Oh I agree, Scone. I think, often, examples seem dreadful, I suppose because they are especially contrived to prove the point of the writer. Similar to the old 'plume de ma tante' examples!

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

Yes, of course, Sangria (love your NN, by the way).

[itsveryyou]

Hi, fwiw, I worked as a print and TV journalist for years and we would always, always refer to a collective group of people, such as a team, or a company, as a singular entity, so in the example above, I'd say 'the team was happy that it won the cup'.

If I was going to use 'they' I'd change it to 'the team members were happy that they had won the cup'.

I think perhaps the grammar style books we referred to were written decades ago, but in the interests of consistency, we would follow certain guidelines.

[DadDadDad]

Itsveryyou - As I've quoted above that (team is always singular) is not the guideline at the Guardian and doesn't appear to be strictly followed at BBC or Telegraph.