ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT: This thread hasn't been posted on for a while.
Just lost it with DCs, I can't cope with any more f***ing poo(86 Posts)
DS, age 6, never been reliably dry or clean since potty training, pants wet every day, poos in pants couple of times a week. Been several times to doctor, referred to hospital, scans on kidneys and bladder, nothing wrong with them. Now being referred to enurologist (sp?) to see if she can help. Also waiting for appt with school nurse continence team on 21st Dec.
Have tried reward charts, drinking more, alarm to remind him to go, Eric, nothing works.
Told him he can't go to friends after school because I can't expect other parents to change him or risk having him wee on their sofa. He doesn't seem bothered.
Just picked him up after school and he'd had to be changed twice, once after wee in pants and once after poo. Then got home and he had only been inside for less than ten minutes, I was in kitchen trying to wash his filthy clothes, went back into living room and both him and DD (age 3) had pooed in their pants. DD had been reliably dry/clean for about a year until recently when she has for some reason started to occasionally poo in her pants.
I just lost it, yelled at them both that they know full well that you do not poo in pants and if they do it again I will be very angry. They both looked terrified and burst into tears.
I've cleaned them up and apologised for shouting but said i'm still cross and upset that I have to clean their poo up.
I'm just fed up of it, I don't seem to be able to remain calm about it any more, why can't they just use the toilet?? Why do hospital referrals take months?? Why does my house smell permanently of wee?? Where have we gone so wrong???
madwoman or anyone else with success with enemas?
Well done for updating us and good luck with treatment. Madwoman would you be able to give more details re your success with enemas. DS is nearly 10 and has no bowel sensation after years of misdiagnosis for impaction. We have never tried enemas. Fairly recently he had botox under general anaesthetic but that has not helped. That appears to be our gastroenterologists preferred option rather than enemas. I had asked re enemas and was told it was something we would have to commit to for two years so to think very seriously about it. However we will have to discuss it at our next appointment now we know the botox has not worked.
That's shit advice from the doctors. Pun intended. Just relax and don't make a big deal it of it and they will grow out of it. Wonder how they would like changing poo pants on their six year old? Day after day, year in and year out.
You should make them go potty before you go anywhere. Don't ask, just tell.
All really common.
Please do ask about enemas as well - it was the only way that we finally broke this in ds, when he was 10. Our paed was completely on the ball and told us that if he soiled, he needed three nightly enemas to reset (on top of the movicol). He still has to toilet ten minutes after breakfast and dinner.
It takes such a long time as the nerves are totally desensitized after years of impaction, but it is so common.
Good luck x
Obviously I mean the doctors were ignoring him, not you!
I'm not one for normally suggesting people complain about health treatment, but I really think you should. It's disgusting he was mins diagnosed / ignored for YEARS!
Havnt read the whole thread but we had similar with ds1
We used a wobl wAtch which was set to vibrate at certain points throughout the day meaning when it vibrates he ha to go to the toilet
We also so a physiotherapist who told is ds has weak core muscles and hyper mobility so he had a course of physio and also hydrotherapy, the conclusion was that his internal muscles weren't strong enough to have complete bladder control.
May be a coincidence but he stopped having accidents around the same time. He still wets the bed occasionally and sometimes has a small wet patch in his pants if he's not quick enough.
Dd on the other hand mater toiletingproblems in a week at age 20 months
Ds2 on the other hand although not as bad as ds1 also soils himself so am going to take the exercises we did with ds1 and his gym ball and do them with ds2 in the hope to strengthen his muscles, unfortunately wobble watch is now broken so can't use that this time
I've just found a post from me on here! Seriously though, this is beyond a joke. I really hope you've finally managed to get something sorted out but I would be having a meeting with the practice manager about why it's taken two years to diagnose a poorly child. Good job it wasn't something even worse.
And yes we're definitely going to be sticking with it. Now we've got this far, we need to keep up the Movicol and keep with the bowel exercises after meals, and keep going on at the hospital!
Thanks both. 3littlefrogs I remember you gave me very good advice and its because of that we've actually pushed to get things done. Its just so frustrating it takes so long to get to this stage. We've had periods of six months or more when nothing happens apart from us trying to chase up to get another appointment, but now it feels as though they're taking us a bit more seriously. We've got another appointment and x-ray already booked in for when he's gone back up to the high dose of Movicol again to check that its worked.
Its just sad that for someone who maybe hadn't researched it or been able to find any advice online (and hadn't burst into tears and shouted at the consultant ), then they'd still be taking 2 sachets of Movicol a day and being told to see how that goes and we'll see you in 6 months.
I remember posting on here OP.
Thank goodness you eventually got the Xray.
You are in for the long haul now though.
You will need to keep going with the bowel retraining for about 4 years.
Don't let anyone tell you different.
You are on the road to recovery now, stick with it.
I'm just so sorry to read that you've had to wait such a ridiculous length of time to get the xray and a proper diagnosis. Poor ds and poor you.
I really hope in 6 months time the situation is something firmly in the past (or at least on it's way to being a thing of the past).
I know this is a really old thread that I started about two years ago (and I also found this thread that I started about three years ago, and its made me realise just how long this has been going on and how annoyingly useless the doctors have been with us.
I just wanted to update - DS has FINALLY been given an x-ray on his bowel and found he is very constipated. So he has been on a very high dose of Movicol for two weeks (up to 12 sachets a day) and then now down to four per day. I then asked if he could have another x-ray to check the constipation has definitely cleared. This was met with surprise and the urology nurse said the Movicol will have cleared the impaction, but I insisted, and very glad that I did because it turns out that although it has cleared a bit, there is still poo stuck in there so we need to up the Movicol again until it is completely clear. Since the 12 sachets per day, DS has only had one poo accident (touch wood) although he's still having daily wee accidents, but one step at a time.
It makes me so annoyed that DS is 8 now and has been going through all this for so long, and its only because I read on here that an x-ray is the only way to diagnose impaction that I insisted on it. Even then it was hard work - the GP touched his tummy and said it was fine, the consultant at the hospital touched his tummy and said it was fine. The urology nurse at least did say he it likely to be constipated and put him on 2 sachets of Movicol per day, which he's been on for about 2 years - but clearly the dose was far too low.
It basically took me breaking down and crying in front of her and basically wailing 'but why hasn't he ever had an x-ray???!' to get them to refer DS for one. Even more frustratingly it turns out the x-ray department has a walk in service so as long as you have a signed form from the consultant you can go whenever you like, so we went the next day, and then got a call back from the urology nurse that afternoon saying he is very impacted you need to start him on a 'clearout' process straight away.
So frustrating that this could have happened at least two years ago. Not sure why I'm posting again really, we're still only part way along the road to DS being 'better' as the wee accidents are still a bit issue, but at long last it feels as though something is happening.
I haven't spoken to ERIC, but have been on their website several times.
DD has a wobl watch which I have set to remind her to go to the toilet just before school break times and lunch. However she either 'forgets' to put it on or when it vibrates she just ignores it 'because she doesn't need a wee'.
I have also tried the 'dry like me' pads from ERIC as DD said that the reason she didn't get changed at school is because she has to go through her classroom to get to her change of clothes bag and everyone will notice. So I got her the pads so she could just change them and they would be more discreet. However in reality she just wets it and then either keeps it on or puts pad in the bin, doesn't replace it and then goes onto wet her clothes later in the day!
So for now I have given up!
We cannot do it for them and until they want to be dry and acknowledge that this is only something they can do, there isn't much point wasting our time and effort. I just hope it isn't the other children at school being horrible that determines this.
Fingers crossed for a better day, although from the poo in the night time nappy this morning rather than get out of bed and the attitude that followed, I am not holding out much hope!
Really glad for you that your DD had a better day yesterday. Weirdly my DS came out of in a much better mood too yesterday. He was a bit wet but no poo accidents and no changes of clothes during the day. He was running about with his friends and laughing and we chatted all the way home, whereas normally he's silent and very grumpy if he's had accidents.
I hadn't considered cold weather making a difference, DS is definitely worse lately, lots more bags of wet and pooey clothes coming home from school. There couldbe a link I guess. Although having said that one of the worst days I remember was on holiday last year, it was a really hot day and he was wearing a wet suit on the beach, we were with another family and all the kids were in rock pools and sitting in the water together. When DS got out we find his wet sit was completely full of wee and poo, almost up to his neck! We got really cross with him because other children had been sitting in the water with him. It is so hard to keep trying to remain calm and realise they're not doing it to be naughty and they genuinely can't help it.
You mentioned ERIC, have you found them any help? I've spoken to someone there and they advised a watch which remind him to go to the toilet at set intervals, but the consultant has since told us that's not a good idea as it doesn't encourage the bladder to hold wee for long enough and they get into the habit of having to go every twenty minutes or whatever.
Anyway here's hoping for another good day!
iwouldgoouttonight, I understand completely the dread of going to pick them up from school, but then you feel guilty for feeling that way.
Twice last week I went to collect my DD from after school club and found her sitting absolutely soaked watching TV on the carpet. Because of this she will not look me in the eyes and the first thing she says to me really miserably is "I'm wet mummy". This results her being really grumpy and argumentative (putting it mildly) because the first thing she has to do when we get home is go and get washed and changed.
Today however was a better day and I think writing in down on here has lifted my mood about it somewhat, whereas the ERIC message board just left me depressed!
DD was dry for the first time in weeks after school (she had still had a change at school but we have to celebrate where we can) and instead of having the nightly battle over getting changed out of wet smelly clothes we were able to make tea together until DS came home with Grandma.
The thing is, because she was dry on pick up she was a completely different girl, she came up to me smiling and was not grumpy at all. It is then that you realise just how much the problem effects them too.
DD has had an ultrasound on her bladder and like your DS it was found to be normal. One thing, do you find that your DS always seems to be worse in winter. I don't know if it is the cold weather or the amount of clothes but DD always seems to be worse in winter. DD's wetting has been getting progressively worse since October and it is currently as bad as it gets, but I remember it was the same last year but I put it down to starting school but now I am beginning to wonder.
That's the other aspect of this, all of the analysing and trying to find patterns/solutions is enough to drive you around the bend, but it is so hard not to do as you are desperate to find anything that may help or be a solution.
I live in hope that one day she will just suddenly wake up and 'get it' although I have been saying that for so long now I don't think even I believe it any more.
Here's to tomorrow and fingers crossed I get the smiley DD and you get a smiley DS on school pickup
Oddboots, the consultant has referred him for an xray on his spine to look for Spina bifida but he's examined him physically and thinks its very unlikely that's what it is. He's also going to have a catheter into his bladder to check how he is filling and emptying it.
How is his walking/balance? Have any of the doctors done neurological tests on him? Is there any sign on his lower back of anything unusual like a deep dimple or a hairy patch?
I only ask as some of the hidden forms of spina bifida cause bowel and bladder problems.
My DS went through this with chronic constipation and pooing himself-the in reality it was overflow. I was so up to my neck in poo I regularly was vomiting-not because I wasn't absolutely OCD with cleaning, but more that I was breathing it in <yik> Even me begging him that I was getting sick didn't help.
We have long term use of movicol, but also, on top of that, he has a micro enema which I do twice a week, and if we're in real trouble then we use a dose of sodium pico sulphate, which when given just before sleep, always results in a good poo the next morning. Maybe you could try this?
I completely empathise. Our GP has been fantastic though, and we keep on with the drugs....
Ps. Our school nurse has been worse than useless too, firstly they said they wouldn't be able to even see him until he was 7/8 years old, and then when the teacher spoke to them they finally met us but just seemed to think he'd grow out on it.
The urology nurse has been more helpful so far, she was really good at explaining to the school what DS needed (not that it seems to have helped!).
Sleepdeprivedby2, thank you so much for your post, you have written word for word exactly what its like. I agree is often the behaviour that accompanies the accidents and refusal to go to the toilet that is worse. I found myself dreading picking DS up from school today because I know if he's had accidents at school he'll be in a bad mood, which will get worse the more I tell him to go to the toilet once he's home. From the tantrums he has its as though going to the toilet is a completely unreasonable thing to have to do and he is the only person in the world who has to!
Sorry your DD's school haven't been more helpful, we've only really had support since he's been in year 2, his teacher really wants to help him, but there just don't seem to be the resources.
I have aDD, just turned 4, and she went through stages where it seemed as though she was copying DS to get attention but touch wood she is over that now. If they were both weeing and pooing themselves I would have been convinced it was something we'd done very wrong when toilet training.
Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk about it! I wouldn't wish it on anyone else but it is some comfort to know we're not the only ones.
Hi Iwouldgoouttonight, couldn't read your thread and just run as I have exactly the same issues (quite scarily so!)
I have a 6 year old DD who has never been dry and since starting school has also had poo issues and a nearly 4 year old DS who after potty training relatively easily sometimes emulates his big sister.
DD also exhibits all of the behavoural aspects you describe. It is so hard and infuriating to deal with and it ends up dominating whole family life even though I try soooo hard not to let it.
From your most recent post it does sound like impaction. My DD is on Movicol and as soon as we start getting skid marks in pants I up the dose of Movicol otherwise we start getting full poos in pants. Upping the movicol dose for a day or 2 seems to prevent this and then we only have wet pants to deal with once again, but any longer on the increased dose and she is loose so we still haven't managed to find the right balance.
The thing I find most infuriating is the fact that most people fail to understand how much of an impact it has on your day to day life. People offer advice like 'ignore it!' how can you ignore a child who is covered in poo and wee and sitting on your (or worse someone elses) sofa knowing that they will quite happily sit there all day and continue playing rather than get changed.
Your whole life ends up revolving around changes of clothes, how can they go on playdates/to the afterschool disco when you know what state they are going to be in after school and the frustration that this creates seems to seep into the rest of your relationship even though you try soooo hard for it not to.
Being wet is the norm for them. I try to see it from my DDs point of view and be understanding but this is not easy when every request to go to the toilet (e.g. just before we go out/go to bed) is met by foot stamping and screaming even though 9 times out of 10 she is already wet.
In many respects I could cope with the constant wet clothes, but the decline in behaviour that always goes with it and the daily battles it creates are far more harder to deal with.
My DS toilet trained quite easily, but we too have had episodes of him emulating his big sisters behaviour. e.g. he has deliberately wet himself so he can go in the bath first and he wet himself at the same time as DD and then they both ran off upstairs laughing about the fact that they were both wet and needed to get changed as if it was some fun game. Thankfully these episodes have all passed after we firmly explained that it was his responsibility to put it into the toilet and ignored it as much as possible.
It sounds like your school have been a lot more helpful than ours who just leaves our DD to get on with it and the school nurse has never phoned back.
Anyway, that was a lot longer than I anticipated! just wanted to say you are not alone and I know that when you look at the piles of wet and soiled pants that is sometimes of little comfort. If you want to PM me to vent your frustrations with someone who understands the feel free to vent away
I think my plan wouldn't work for impaction - that's a whole other issue. As far as I remember, with serious constipation, kids end up having very little control. And presumably with laxitives you ds will have even less control. With my dd (then age 3 1/2) it was about finding ways to get attention from me - a completely different issue.
Good luck. Hopefully now you have a consultant involved things will start to sort themselves out.
Thanks, that's really good that worked so well for your DD. How old was she? The consultant thinks DS has impaction, hence the laxatives. He holds onto poo and then it leaks out. He's having more and more wee accidents lately too but she said she can't treat the until the poo is sorted.
We have tried ignoring but he will literally sit there all day getting wetter and more smelly and will never tell us. It seems as though because he's never been dry it seems normal to him to sit in wet pants so its not an issue for him.
I'm worrying for him at school because children have started to comment on it, not in a nasty way, but as they get older they might. He'll be in KS2 in sept and mixing with older children who might be more likely to say things about it.
Did you definitely find out if it was an impaction / constipation problem?
My dd1 was a soiler for about a year. Eventually I got advice from a very experienced nursery teacher. She came up with a plan and within a week the issue was resolved. I've posted this before, but I've copied and pasted below in case it might be helpful. If the issues are around constipation this program is probably not appropriate.
"I had tried rewards, reminding, books on the loo - nothing worked. I went to have a chat to the deputy head of my DD's nursery and we hatched a plan. It worked so well that that the problem resolved itself almost instantaneously.
OK, this is what we did. It might not work for you because your circumstances might be different. I admit I was sceptical of it working for us, but it really did. Incidentally, DD wasn't constipated at all and the issues hadn't started around a period of constipation. I think this would make a difference in how the issue should be approached.
1) I stopped giving any reminders about going to the loo. Absolutely none - very difficult to do! I completely left it up to DD to make her own decision.
2) I started saying, in a very casual and relaxed way, "Mummy and Daddy do poos in the loo, all the children at nursery do poos in the loo and you need to do poos in the loo to".
After a day of this, she did her first poo in the loo for four months. I fell over backwards. There were one or two accidents over the next few days.
3) If she pooed in her pants, I waited for her to come and tell me. (Previously I had pointed it out to her.) I then said "Let me know when you want to come and get changed" and walked away. This was to get rid of the usual game where DD ran away while I try to get her changed.
4) She had to help to clean herself up i.e. she helped to pull pooey pants and trousers off, and cleaned herself with wipes. I ignored her as much as possible and got on with cleaning yucky pants. I didn't comment at all, although did help a bit to get her clean at the end. I didn't give her any praise for wiping herself but was not nasty at all. It was all just very matter of fact.
5) I gave her new pants and trousers and let her get dressed by herself. Again no praise but no nastiness.
Throughout I tried to maintain a zen like calm!
It was only while dealing with pooey pants in the method I described above, that I realised how much attention she had been getting from me previously when she pooed in her pants. Previously I really thought I was giving her lots of praise for doing the right thing and ignoring when things were going wrong, but I just wasn't. I was cleaning her up through gritted teeth and making lots of cross, annoyed comments. Also, reminding her lots and lots, which of course meant she know exactly which buttons to press when she wanted my attention."
When my dd2 started pooing in her pants following a short episode of constipation, I was initially very kind to her. However, within a week or so, poos were back to normal and she was continuing to poo in her pants. I instigated the regime described above. We had about 4 days of screaming blue murder tantrums when I refused to wipe her bum and left her in the bathroom with a packet of wipes. However, 5 days in and she was once again pooing in the loo.
Best of luck. Potty training made me angrier that just about any other aspect of parenting. But I suspect this was the factor that sustained the behaviour.
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