Just lost it with DCs, I can't cope with any more f***ing poo(73 Posts)
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DS, age 6, never been reliably dry or clean since potty training, pants wet every day, poos in pants couple of times a week. Been several times to doctor, referred to hospital, scans on kidneys and bladder, nothing wrong with them. Now being referred to enurologist (sp?) to see if she can help. Also waiting for appt with school nurse continence team on 21st Dec.
Have tried reward charts, drinking more, alarm to remind him to go, Eric, nothing works.
Told him he can't go to friends after school because I can't expect other parents to change him or risk having him wee on their sofa. He doesn't seem bothered.
Just picked him up after school and he'd had to be changed twice, once after wee in pants and once after poo. Then got home and he had only been inside for less than ten minutes, I was in kitchen trying to wash his filthy clothes, went back into living room and both him and DD (age 3) had pooed in their pants. DD had been reliably dry/clean for about a year until recently when she has for some reason started to occasionally poo in her pants.
I just lost it, yelled at them both that they know full well that you do not poo in pants and if they do it again I will be very angry. They both looked terrified and burst into tears.
I've cleaned them up and apologised for shouting but said i'm still cross and upset that I have to clean their poo up.
I'm just fed up of it, I don't seem to be able to remain calm about it any more, why can't they just use the toilet?? Why do hospital referrals take months?? Why does my house smell permanently of wee?? Where have we gone so wrong???
I haven't spoken to ERIC, but have been on their website several times.
DD has a wobl watch which I have set to remind her to go to the toilet just before school break times and lunch. However she either 'forgets' to put it on or when it vibrates she just ignores it 'because she doesn't need a wee'.
I have also tried the 'dry like me' pads from ERIC as DD said that the reason she didn't get changed at school is because she has to go through her classroom to get to her change of clothes bag and everyone will notice. So I got her the pads so she could just change them and they would be more discreet. However in reality she just wets it and then either keeps it on or puts pad in the bin, doesn't replace it and then goes onto wet her clothes later in the day!
So for now I have given up!
We cannot do it for them and until they want to be dry and acknowledge that this is only something they can do, there isn't much point wasting our time and effort. I just hope it isn't the other children at school being horrible that determines this.
Fingers crossed for a better day, although from the poo in the night time nappy this morning rather than get out of bed and the attitude that followed, I am not holding out much hope!
Really glad for you that your DD had a better day yesterday. Weirdly my DS came out of in a much better mood too yesterday. He was a bit wet but no poo accidents and no changes of clothes during the day. He was running about with his friends and laughing and we chatted all the way home, whereas normally he's silent and very grumpy if he's had accidents.
I hadn't considered cold weather making a difference, DS is definitely worse lately, lots more bags of wet and pooey clothes coming home from school. There couldbe a link I guess. Although having said that one of the worst days I remember was on holiday last year, it was a really hot day and he was wearing a wet suit on the beach, we were with another family and all the kids were in rock pools and sitting in the water together. When DS got out we find his wet sit was completely full of wee and poo, almost up to his neck! We got really cross with him because other children had been sitting in the water with him. It is so hard to keep trying to remain calm and realise they're not doing it to be naughty and they genuinely can't help it.
You mentioned ERIC, have you found them any help? I've spoken to someone there and they advised a watch which remind him to go to the toilet at set intervals, but the consultant has since told us that's not a good idea as it doesn't encourage the bladder to hold wee for long enough and they get into the habit of having to go every twenty minutes or whatever.
Anyway here's hoping for another good day!
iwouldgoouttonight, I understand completely the dread of going to pick them up from school, but then you feel guilty for feeling that way.
Twice last week I went to collect my DD from after school club and found her sitting absolutely soaked watching TV on the carpet. Because of this she will not look me in the eyes and the first thing she says to me really miserably is "I'm wet mummy". This results her being really grumpy and argumentative (putting it mildly) because the first thing she has to do when we get home is go and get washed and changed.
Today however was a better day and I think writing in down on here has lifted my mood about it somewhat, whereas the ERIC message board just left me depressed!
DD was dry for the first time in weeks after school (she had still had a change at school but we have to celebrate where we can) and instead of having the nightly battle over getting changed out of wet smelly clothes we were able to make tea together until DS came home with Grandma.
The thing is, because she was dry on pick up she was a completely different girl, she came up to me smiling and was not grumpy at all. It is then that you realise just how much the problem effects them too.
DD has had an ultrasound on her bladder and like your DS it was found to be normal. One thing, do you find that your DS always seems to be worse in winter. I don't know if it is the cold weather or the amount of clothes but DD always seems to be worse in winter. DD's wetting has been getting progressively worse since October and it is currently as bad as it gets, but I remember it was the same last year but I put it down to starting school but now I am beginning to wonder.
That's the other aspect of this, all of the analysing and trying to find patterns/solutions is enough to drive you around the bend, but it is so hard not to do as you are desperate to find anything that may help or be a solution.
I live in hope that one day she will just suddenly wake up and 'get it' although I have been saying that for so long now I don't think even I believe it any more.
Here's to tomorrow and fingers crossed I get the smiley DD and you get a smiley DS on school pickup
Oddboots, the consultant has referred him for an xray on his spine to look for Spina bifida but he's examined him physically and thinks its very unlikely that's what it is. He's also going to have a catheter into his bladder to check how he is filling and emptying it.
How is his walking/balance? Have any of the doctors done neurological tests on him? Is there any sign on his lower back of anything unusual like a deep dimple or a hairy patch?
I only ask as some of the hidden forms of spina bifida cause bowel and bladder problems.
My DS went through this with chronic constipation and pooing himself-the in reality it was overflow. I was so up to my neck in poo I regularly was vomiting-not because I wasn't absolutely OCD with cleaning, but more that I was breathing it in <yik> Even me begging him that I was getting sick didn't help.
We have long term use of movicol, but also, on top of that, he has a micro enema which I do twice a week, and if we're in real trouble then we use a dose of sodium pico sulphate, which when given just before sleep, always results in a good poo the next morning. Maybe you could try this?
I completely empathise. Our GP has been fantastic though, and we keep on with the drugs....
Ps. Our school nurse has been worse than useless too, firstly they said they wouldn't be able to even see him until he was 7/8 years old, and then when the teacher spoke to them they finally met us but just seemed to think he'd grow out on it.
The urology nurse has been more helpful so far, she was really good at explaining to the school what DS needed (not that it seems to have helped!).
Sleepdeprivedby2, thank you so much for your post, you have written word for word exactly what its like. I agree is often the behaviour that accompanies the accidents and refusal to go to the toilet that is worse. I found myself dreading picking DS up from school today because I know if he's had accidents at school he'll be in a bad mood, which will get worse the more I tell him to go to the toilet once he's home. From the tantrums he has its as though going to the toilet is a completely unreasonable thing to have to do and he is the only person in the world who has to!
Sorry your DD's school haven't been more helpful, we've only really had support since he's been in year 2, his teacher really wants to help him, but there just don't seem to be the resources.
I have aDD, just turned 4, and she went through stages where it seemed as though she was copying DS to get attention but touch wood she is over that now. If they were both weeing and pooing themselves I would have been convinced it was something we'd done very wrong when toilet training.
Feel free to PM me too if you want to talk about it! I wouldn't wish it on anyone else but it is some comfort to know we're not the only ones.
Hi Iwouldgoouttonight, couldn't read your thread and just run as I have exactly the same issues (quite scarily so!)
I have a 6 year old DD who has never been dry and since starting school has also had poo issues and a nearly 4 year old DS who after potty training relatively easily sometimes emulates his big sister.
DD also exhibits all of the behavoural aspects you describe. It is so hard and infuriating to deal with and it ends up dominating whole family life even though I try soooo hard not to let it.
From your most recent post it does sound like impaction. My DD is on Movicol and as soon as we start getting skid marks in pants I up the dose of Movicol otherwise we start getting full poos in pants. Upping the movicol dose for a day or 2 seems to prevent this and then we only have wet pants to deal with once again, but any longer on the increased dose and she is loose so we still haven't managed to find the right balance.
The thing I find most infuriating is the fact that most people fail to understand how much of an impact it has on your day to day life. People offer advice like 'ignore it!' how can you ignore a child who is covered in poo and wee and sitting on your (or worse someone elses) sofa knowing that they will quite happily sit there all day and continue playing rather than get changed.
Your whole life ends up revolving around changes of clothes, how can they go on playdates/to the afterschool disco when you know what state they are going to be in after school and the frustration that this creates seems to seep into the rest of your relationship even though you try soooo hard for it not to.
Being wet is the norm for them. I try to see it from my DDs point of view and be understanding but this is not easy when every request to go to the toilet (e.g. just before we go out/go to bed) is met by foot stamping and screaming even though 9 times out of 10 she is already wet.
In many respects I could cope with the constant wet clothes, but the decline in behaviour that always goes with it and the daily battles it creates are far more harder to deal with.
My DS toilet trained quite easily, but we too have had episodes of him emulating his big sisters behaviour. e.g. he has deliberately wet himself so he can go in the bath first and he wet himself at the same time as DD and then they both ran off upstairs laughing about the fact that they were both wet and needed to get changed as if it was some fun game. Thankfully these episodes have all passed after we firmly explained that it was his responsibility to put it into the toilet and ignored it as much as possible.
It sounds like your school have been a lot more helpful than ours who just leaves our DD to get on with it and the school nurse has never phoned back.
Anyway, that was a lot longer than I anticipated! just wanted to say you are not alone and I know that when you look at the piles of wet and soiled pants that is sometimes of little comfort. If you want to PM me to vent your frustrations with someone who understands the feel free to vent away
I think my plan wouldn't work for impaction - that's a whole other issue. As far as I remember, with serious constipation, kids end up having very little control. And presumably with laxitives you ds will have even less control. With my dd (then age 3 1/2) it was about finding ways to get attention from me - a completely different issue.
Good luck. Hopefully now you have a consultant involved things will start to sort themselves out.
Thanks, that's really good that worked so well for your DD. How old was she? The consultant thinks DS has impaction, hence the laxatives. He holds onto poo and then it leaks out. He's having more and more wee accidents lately too but she said she can't treat the until the poo is sorted.
We have tried ignoring but he will literally sit there all day getting wetter and more smelly and will never tell us. It seems as though because he's never been dry it seems normal to him to sit in wet pants so its not an issue for him.
I'm worrying for him at school because children have started to comment on it, not in a nasty way, but as they get older they might. He'll be in KS2 in sept and mixing with older children who might be more likely to say things about it.
Did you definitely find out if it was an impaction / constipation problem?
My dd1 was a soiler for about a year. Eventually I got advice from a very experienced nursery teacher. She came up with a plan and within a week the issue was resolved. I've posted this before, but I've copied and pasted below in case it might be helpful. If the issues are around constipation this program is probably not appropriate.
"I had tried rewards, reminding, books on the loo - nothing worked. I went to have a chat to the deputy head of my DD's nursery and we hatched a plan. It worked so well that that the problem resolved itself almost instantaneously.
OK, this is what we did. It might not work for you because your circumstances might be different. I admit I was sceptical of it working for us, but it really did. Incidentally, DD wasn't constipated at all and the issues hadn't started around a period of constipation. I think this would make a difference in how the issue should be approached.
1) I stopped giving any reminders about going to the loo. Absolutely none - very difficult to do! I completely left it up to DD to make her own decision.
2) I started saying, in a very casual and relaxed way, "Mummy and Daddy do poos in the loo, all the children at nursery do poos in the loo and you need to do poos in the loo to".
After a day of this, she did her first poo in the loo for four months. I fell over backwards. There were one or two accidents over the next few days.
3) If she pooed in her pants, I waited for her to come and tell me. (Previously I had pointed it out to her.) I then said "Let me know when you want to come and get changed" and walked away. This was to get rid of the usual game where DD ran away while I try to get her changed.
4) She had to help to clean herself up i.e. she helped to pull pooey pants and trousers off, and cleaned herself with wipes. I ignored her as much as possible and got on with cleaning yucky pants. I didn't comment at all, although did help a bit to get her clean at the end. I didn't give her any praise for wiping herself but was not nasty at all. It was all just very matter of fact.
5) I gave her new pants and trousers and let her get dressed by herself. Again no praise but no nastiness.
Throughout I tried to maintain a zen like calm!
It was only while dealing with pooey pants in the method I described above, that I realised how much attention she had been getting from me previously when she pooed in her pants. Previously I really thought I was giving her lots of praise for doing the right thing and ignoring when things were going wrong, but I just wasn't. I was cleaning her up through gritted teeth and making lots of cross, annoyed comments. Also, reminding her lots and lots, which of course meant she know exactly which buttons to press when she wanted my attention."
When my dd2 started pooing in her pants following a short episode of constipation, I was initially very kind to her. However, within a week or so, poos were back to normal and she was continuing to poo in her pants. I instigated the regime described above. We had about 4 days of screaming blue murder tantrums when I refused to wipe her bum and left her in the bathroom with a packet of wipes. However, 5 days in and she was once again pooing in the loo.
Best of luck. Potty training made me angrier that just about any other aspect of parenting. But I suspect this was the factor that sustained the behaviour.
Thanks missingthemincepies. I'm going to phone the consultant at the hospital and ask her to speak to the school again and also see if she'll write to the LEA about funding. Apparently there isanother child in the school with a similar problem so she said there should be no problem getting funding for extra support for them both.
I am now having
Just read the thread and feel so sorry for your family OP.
Re school, could you ask your GP to write a letter in support and go to the board of governors to complain that your child's welfare is not being safeguarded?
It is really unacceptable of the school not to help.
I'm guessing since he's on laxatives that impaction was found to be a problem? Poor little boy. Poor you.
Sorry I have no words of wisdom to help.
Stressing not accessing
I started this thread ages ago but things seem to be getting worse. Just had a call from the school saying DS has had three poos in his pants today. A friend is picking him up from school today because I have to work so I've just had to call her and apologise profusely about the fact that she will be presented with three bags of pooey clothes when she gets there.
Urology nurse is being really good and
has met with the school to explain how they can get funding for extra support to help with taking DS to the toilet and clean him up after accidents. But the school have now said they can't get extra support and they'll get someone to take him to the toilet at lunchtime if someone is available. Problem is this isn't happening because staff are just too busy.
DS needs someone to go to the toilet with him to get him to do his squeezing exercises that the nurse told him to do. He's also on laxatives to clear his bowel and needs to regularly be taken to the toilet to get into a routine of emptying his bowel and bladder. If sent on his own he just simply won't go.
Its affecting all of us so much, our whole lives seem to be getting him to go to the toilet, him being upset about it, cleaning
up poo and wee and just generally accessing about it.
Was just having 5 mins to myself with MN reading this thread when dd shouts down the stairs that DS is smelly. So leaving this thread I go to find he is covered in poo. All over his clothes, on the carpet etc. AAaagh. He is 4 next week. Is not a bit bothered by it and seemed quite aggrieved that I dared dunk him in the bath. So you have my total sympathies op. Totally understand the need to scream and cry right now. Off to finish cleaning the carpet!
Oh and we found the weeing his pants has stopped since we sorted it.
Ok here is my experience. DS is 4.7 and getting much better but it has taken a while. A long long while.
My plan which was started in Feb this year was to reward him to sit on the toilet. Not worrying about doing anything in it just sitting and doing a try. If he tried 4 times a day (after meals and one other time) then he would get an activity which involved focus from us. So he got to play a computer game before bed with DH.
That seemed to work - although its only now he has got properly better. He still soils but more often than not he does it in the toilet / potty. He still gets a chocolate coin if he poos in the toilet / potty.
More often than not he will poo when he hasn't got any pants on i.e. bath time. He used to do lots of poos in his pants I had to change him 10 times a day some times.
Also he did have movicol to begin with that helped things along. So to speak.
It made my life hell - so fingers crossed it doesn't get worse again.
This book came recommended. The paed who wrote it is local to me and supposed to be helpful.
I am sorry, it is a nightmare isn't it. My DS only just grew out of wetting the bed at night when he was about 12 (I think) all gets a bit vague and I remember how awful it was for years'. Don't be too hard on yourself. If you shouted and got cross with them then so be it. I think I would have reacted in the same way
I have not read the whole thread. I do not think it is encopresis either but I would still use Dr. Collins' method of
Sitting child on toilet after eating, maybe twice a day. The gastro colic reflex kicks in. I would also go to Dr. Collins' site and read there. Google his name and encopresis. I do not blame you for being sick of the whole mess.
Have been battling with this myself, though DD is younger. Was SO sure it wasn't constipation as she does poo regularly (and they seem normal) but she was very off and UTIish on thursday and this am has done some very sloppy overflow type poo.
I really didn't want this to be it. I'm not sure the GP will refer for investigation until she is 4 anyway in this area. (I know a friend had trouble getting any medical attention for her DD) And they weren't particularly helpful when the problem was toddler diarrhoea (which she had pretty much from weaning until 2 1/2). I really don't want to wait another 4 months to get things rolling in there is a physical issue.
Those who have cut out dairy, is there a best way to approach this?
There is an excellent article in this weeks British Medical Journal about this. It is surprisingly common. Hopefully some of the people who have been fobbing you off will read it OP.
if you think he is doing it on purpose, put him in nappies.
Can he actually 'feel' when he needs to go?
I had issues as a child with wetting the bed and it only stopped when I hit puberty . I wasn't taken to a doctor though. My DM had the idea that hitting me, shouting at me and forcing me to hand wash and hand wring the sheets was the way forward.
I never could feel when I needed to go until it was too late. And it got better... and then I had a lousy birth experience where DD slammed through my bladder and I'm back to not feeling anything.