Mumsnet Talk

DH is 99% likely to be charged with theft by his employer. He has sold items that were in a skip but obviously still belonged to the company. There is also a breach of security involved because of the type of company. The financial gain involved is a four-figure sum.

What should he expect to happen in terms of sentencing. Custodial/suspended/community service?

I can't get any answers out of him and am struggling to cope with it all. I need some concrete facts so I can make plans. He will obviously not have a job at the end of it.

Blimey - I can't help but sympathies for you. You must be all over the place.

That would be one way of putting it.

It came completely out of the blue. The police searched the house twice which was particularly unpleasant.

I can't hope to match his salary and childcare around here is tricky so it's difficult.

I have always coped with whatever life has thrown at me and fallen apart later but this has thrown me completely.

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

Don't have much advice to offer so bumping for you.

At least he has admitted his wrongdoing.

There are some magistrates on MN - just keep bumping this when you can.

You poor thing - I think now is the time to force him to give you some answers.

From a legal POV the starting point for sentencing re theft from employer is a custodial sentence. Without knowing the full facts it is very difficult to predict accurately but the breach of security (as well as trust) and the amount of financial gain aggravate the offence and make a custodial sentence more likely. On the other hand the fact that the items were being thrown out may mitigate the offence.

Does he have previous convictions? If not and with a good pre sentence report her stands a reasonable chance of staying out of prison provided he cooperates fully. This would include admitting what he did in interview and pleading guilty at earliest opportunity although I couldn't offer advice on that as I do not know the facts. He ought to get a decent solicitor asap. The fact that he knows this is coming gives him tine to find one.

There will be some ladies along later who

sorry i have no advice but hopefully someone will come along soon who does
bumping this for you .
if the stuff was in the skip then the company no longer needed it surely this will have to be taken into account ?

I think not all the items had made it to the skip - they were being written off but hadn't actually been IYKWIM. The firm is owned by an American company so the items were American property and they have taken a dim view of it all, not unsurprisingly.

He has no previous convictions and has co-operated fully and admitted everything.

He is a long-standing employee of the firm and was on a very good salary. He has been told it was a colleague who realised what he was doing and told security. Can't blame them really.

Some of the items were classified which complicates the issue.

Thank you for all the responses. I don't really know who to turn to at the moment.

bump

I'm sorry this is happening to you.

Don't have much advice to offer so just bumping for you.

Stay strong!!!!

My post was supposed to end with the comment that I know there are ladies on here who can give more practical advice on how you can cope should your dh receive a custodial sentence.

I know quite a lot about this through work (can't say what I do or will get in trouble but please trust me that I know what I'm talking about here)

OK you know he is in serious trouble BUT he has no previous convictions which will be in his favour as well as his co-operation and admitting it straight away.

What he needs is a solicitor. He can either go and get one now but from what you say he will probably have to pay unless he has already been sacked and is signing on. If you have savings though he still will not qualify for legal aid.

Alternatively he can wait until the day he goes to court and as soon as he has booked in ask to see the duty solicitor who will probably represent him on the day and it will cost nothing.

He can do it without a solicitor but given the seriousness I would recommend that he does.
If the court say it is serious enough to go to the Crown Court for sentencing he WILL qualify for legal aid as there is no means test there.

What is going to make a difference in just how much he took, how much he got for it, how long this went on for and how high up he was in the company.

Have a look here. It is the sentencing guidelines for magistrates - its a public document so not you are allowed to see it. You need the guideline for theft - breach of trust (page 100a)

Got to go to PILs (mothers day!) but will be back later

He needs to look at the issue of abandonment. Not an expert in criminal law but know a man who is. Where are you in the UK?

We are West Midlands.

He had a solicitor with him at the police station and that solicitor will be present when he goes back there in a couple of weeks. He says he doesn't know what that appointment is for - I presume it's to do with bail?

So he has a solicitor I think.

Cissycharlton - ah, I see where you are coming from. But I believe the law is quite clear (and there are specific precedents) that stuff in skips etc is still company property and it is theft. People have been convicted for removing items of much lesser value than what DH took.

ah now i haev heard of this very same case before.
it was part of a lorry/trailer thing
had been lefr for years in a yard then the person took it and sold it.
Big comp claim but( rather dodgey) employer for a part that was useless as they didnt make the van for it any more iyswim

he got off wiht unpaid work iirc

adn that bloke defended himself.
it was a total aberration - prev good charaacter counted for a lot and unlikely to reoffend. had lost job etc.
you could always hope for a curfew rather than custody too - imo almost more onerous.
a good solicitor will sort you out - ask around and find out who is good and used to your local court.

Droitwichmummy once he is charged he will be entitled to legal aid regardless of his income due to the nature and seriousness of the case. Legal aid will also cover the interviews and attendance at police station pre charge. What it won't cover is any cons you have between those and prior to charge, although Tbh at this stage there is little advice a solicitor will be able to give so that doesn't really matter. They are unlikely to have had any discosure from the police so won't have all the facts.

Also although the mags sentencing guidelines are worth a look it is unlikely the mags ct will retain jurisdiction given the value and breach of trust. That means regardless of plea the case will be transferred to the crown court for sentencing.

Just spoken to a police officer.

Is this is first offence? If so it's unlikely he would go to prison for it.

Also - depends on the legal team his company has. If they're seriously pissed off and a large company, they could hire a very good legal team and make a lot of fuss (to prove a point). A smaller company might not have the backing to this.

Also - if he pleads guilty immediately he'll get a third off any sentence. If he goes guilty just before the trial it's 25% off.

If he loses his job, the judge would take this into account (as part of the punishment). So taken with an early guilty plea, chances are he is very unlikely to get a custodial sentence.

Hope this helps. I do feel for you.

at court door is down to 1/10

Down to the jury at the end of the day apple.

Headbanger, the company would not prosecute him, the CPS would.

There are 3 defences in section 2 of the Theft Act:
-a right in law
-the owner would have consented
-the owner couldn't be found

Then if these don't work the test for dishonesty is in a case (Ghosh), and the court will be asked
Is it dishonest by the standards of reasonable people? If yes, did the defendant realise it was dishonest by those standards.

Your DH should plead not guilty relying on the Ghosh test and the lack of dishonesty, as the items were seemingly abandoned in a skip. Many people would not consider taking items in a skip dishonest, really, as the owner is disposing of them.

However if he has already admitted dishonesty in interview, he should plead guilty at the earliest opportunity which does reduce any sentence by one third.

It is a large company and they are seriously hacked off. DH was a well-respected employee and nothing like this has happened before. It wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to make an example of him.

I need to get out of DH where all these items were. Some were in a skip but some weren't and hadn't been written off. They also hadn't had the guts removed so had classified parts that are now somewhere where they should not be.

DH knew some of the items were not his to sell and he also understood there were security implications with what he was doing. It wasn't an ordinary skip - I believe it was a bin of items that were to be disposed of in a specific manner.