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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Legal matters

DP taking his DD on holiday

16 replies

1ofthosedays · 26/04/2016 10:48

My DP is taking his DD on holiday abroad. All the arrangements have been made and agreed. There has been no issue with the holiday from either parent so far.

My question is:
Does his DDs mum need to provide him with a letter giving him permission to take their DD abroad? She has her mums surname and my DP isn't on the birth certificate but was given PR through the courts. This is just a precautionary measure in case there is any hassle at passport control.

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Fourormore · 26/04/2016 12:05

I take one from my ex when I travel, just in case. Chances are you won't need it but if she's happy to sign one, all the better.

1ofthosedays · 26/04/2016 12:28

Ok thank you.
DP wasnt sure what he was supposed to and wants it all to go as smoothly as possible as this is the first time he has been allowed to take his DD abroad.

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Cabrinha · 27/04/2016 19:46

I would take the PR order from the court.
I just came into the UK with my child who has her father's surname - it was simply the nicer name.
They asked her a lot of questions about whether she had been happy to travel with me that day - and told me to carry her birth certificate or a letter from her father next time.
Personally I'd go for the official document.

Fourormore · 27/04/2016 21:41

Yes I'd take that as well but the PR court order on its own isn't sufficient.

lostdad · 28/04/2016 11:12

Anyone who has PR can take their child away for up to 28 days unless a) the other parent has a residence order (`lives with' since the changes on the order) or another order that specifically prohibits it.

That is the legal standpoint.

Out of courtesy it is normal to let the other parent know travel times, destination (you don't need to give them the address though!) and an assurance that they will be contacted in case of an emergency - that should work both ways.

Finally...remember because your partner is a separated parent none of his parental obligations, responsibilities, etc. changed when he separated from his DD's mother. Courts only make orders when they have to. It's easy to forget that an awful lot of parents are able to parent their child on day-to-day basis without a court order telling them what they can and can't do!

Fourormore · 28/04/2016 12:32

Are you sure about that lostdad?? I'm fairly sure you need the permission of the other parent with PR or a court order.

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

prh47bridge · 28/04/2016 18:22

Lostdad is wrong.

If you have a residence order or a CAO giving residence you can take the child out of the country for up to 28 days. In the absence of an order you need the permission of everyone with PR to take the child out of the country.

Fourormore · 28/04/2016 19:01

That's what I thought. Bizarrely, the gov site I linked to has replaced residence order with child arrangements order but doesn't seem to differentiate between a living with or spends time with order; which seems to imply that even if you have an order to spend time with your children, that is sufficient to travel abroad on without further permission from the other parent.

More confusing is that child arrangements orders can list who the children live with but that isn't actually the new equivalent of an old residence order according to the pinktape blog.

Clear as mud!

1ofthosedays · 03/05/2016 15:04

It's all so confusing! And hard to know your legal rights.

DP's ex is now only agreeing to holiday abroad if a binding agreement is made in front of a solicitor. She is requesting he provides her with all details of the holiday etc and restricting the holiday to the EU.

He has agreed all of her conditions. She will not agree to do the same if she was booking a holiday abroad. She has often taken his DD abroad without his knowledge and not even providing the most basic details (ie destination and flight times)

She is also now refusing to provide the passport 3 days before the holiday. She says that it is not necessary.

What is the legal stand point here?

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Fourormore · 03/05/2016 15:10

I'd be tempted to go to court for a specific issue order. 3 days before is way too late and there's no reason to restrict to the EU.

1ofthosedays · 03/05/2016 15:34

That is what I'm tempted for too tbh.

Ideally would like to get things sorted outside of court though and DPs worried he will look petty to take the matter back to court. He has got as far as he has regarding contact etc as he has always shown the judge that he has been the one to compromise when they have been to court and has only filed orders when absolutely necessary. He feels that this may be viewed as unnecessary as she has technically agreed to let him have the passport, just on the day of departure....

She has a past of trying her hardest to restrict contact and control what he can/cant do when he has contact. This was all noted in the last court order and all restrictions she had previously attempted to impose were dropped by the judge. So that might count in his favour if he files for a SIO even though she has agreed to let him have the passport?

Apart form early check in, we cant actually think of any other reasons as to why he needs it in advance of holiday..! Apart from the reason 'because we dont think you will hand it over'

Though it was too good to be true when she initially agreed to the holiday!

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Fourormore · 03/05/2016 16:21

"because we don't think you'll hand it over" is a perfectly good reason IMO. Setting unnecessary restrictions are also a good reason.

Also what does she mean by "a binding agreement made in front of a solicitor" ?!

It is right that he is asked to provide details of the holiday but that's all a court would expect really.

1ofthosedays · 03/05/2016 16:33

To be honest Im not even really sure what that means either?! Is it just like

We just agreed to everything as DP has nothing to hide and felt if it made her feel more comfortable about her DDs first holiday abroad without her then what would be the harm!!

Again, DP was happy to provide holiday details as he would expect the same but she is refusing to agree to provide him with the same details. Even saying 'you cant dictate what I do with DD in my time'. although Im pretty sure that is EXACTLY what she is trying to do to him..

Am I right in understanding that he is under no legal obligation to ask her permission to leave the country with DD if it falls during his time for contact as they both have PR and order states that their DD lives with both of them although more time is spent with her DM.

This just feels like so much hassle for a couple of days away. We now feel like its not worth it and to just tell her not to worry altogether!

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Fourormore · 03/05/2016 16:36

If the order states that she lives with both parents then yes, he doesn't need any further permission to take the child away as long as it's less than 28 days. I hope you can get it sorted - such unnecessary stress.

1ofthosedays · 03/05/2016 16:38

Completely! Thank you for your advice fourormore

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1ofthosedays · 04/05/2016 12:07

What would be the wording to apply for a SIO for passports? Thanks

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