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Permission to take children abroad when you don't know where exh is

(39 Posts)
moldingsunbeams Tue 18-Mar-14 10:10:42

So if no court or residency order you need to get permission from anyone with PR to take child on holiday. What are you meant to do if they have cut contact?

SavoyCabbage Thu 20-Mar-14 11:58:16

I've been stopped before and I do have the same name as my dc and I am married and living with dh, who is their father. So it's not that they know, it's that they check.

After my friend was separated from her dc at the airport when her dd answered 'america' when asked where she lived (too much tv) I drill my dc on what to say if asked.

CashmereHoodlum Thu 20-Mar-14 11:51:53

Thank you Nappaholic.

Nappaholic Wed 19-Mar-14 22:53:55

Thanks OldLady. That's very helpful.

It does. His legal aid request went in at the end of march last year, and he's dragged it all out. Hope it's finished soon, but doesn't solve the problem of holidays. Bastard.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 19-Mar-14 19:34:15

The Schengen Agreement is the legislation that permits most EU citizens to travel freely within the EU. UK took an opt-out on that one, we are in a Common Travel Agreement with Ireland, which allows us to travel there without passports (and vis versa).

NomDeClavier Wed 19-Mar-14 19:27:12

Sometimes it's simple- there's no father on the birth cert or there a death cert. Border Officials see it all the time. Yes it's a pain to prove and it can't be fun dragging the paperwork to prove your partner is dead round with you but it's a relatively small price to pay when you consider the heartbreak international child abduction causes.

It really is best at the pointing of separation to get an order in place but it's not something people thing of, understandably. It's worth looking into when it cones up though and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to hope for the best.

Nappaholic Wed 19-Mar-14 19:21:38

Titchy - I meant I was being UK centric...but not all Mumsnetters are in the UK - hence my apology. I don't understand your comment otherwise - where is Schengen?

JaneinReading Wed 19-Mar-14 18:36:35

I think legal aid for that kind of thing stops this year so you might it gets easier as he won't have lawyers.

This is the 4th year running that I have been to court to get permission for a holiday. Each time the abusive xh uses it as an opportunity to attempt to manipulate, and extend contact. The court won't give ongoing permission, and the bastard is still on legal aid taking the piss out of the legal system. Whoever said it's a way for abusers to continue abusing is totally right.

JaneinReading Wed 19-Mar-14 17:58:15

Best to tae a permission with you although I never had and when married and after divorce have never once been stopped all over the planet from Central America to ski resorts, Europe and the Caribbean. Perhaps I've just been lucky. All those were holidays. (And we all have the same surname). Fathers and mothers take children on holiday without the other parent all the time. Many go back to the home country every summer whilst the father stays in the UK for all but a week or two even in happily married couples or better off mothers are jetting off on breaks to warmer climes without the other parent 9 Kate Middleton did it with her parents and the baby recently.

BUT it sounds like the law requires some kind of consent. There may be of course be no other parent. I know a sperm donor mother. A friend of mine was widowed with 2 children. He takes them all over - Vietnam, Europe, USA (although I suppose perhaps he always carries his wife's death certificate with him - I've never asked).

I certainly have never bothered and never will.

titchy Wed 19-Mar-14 17:57:30

Errr well we're in the UK - so yes of course my post was Uk-centric....

Nappaholic Wed 19-Mar-14 16:48:50

Little bit UK centric there, titchy! Sorry.

titchy Wed 19-Mar-14 16:32:38

UK isn't in Schengen area so no we are not free to move around without passports.

Nappaholic Wed 19-Mar-14 16:21:49

Sorry. Correction to my last post...The court fee for a specific issue order is 215 quid, not 175...they went up (again) last July!

Nappaholic Wed 19-Mar-14 16:15:54

The court application fee for a specific issue order is £175 at present. You can apply for a waiver of fees if you are poor enough...but prob wouldn't then be able to afford a holiday abroad? Legal advice to assist with the application maybe £100-£200. Representation prob £150-£200 an hour for maybe three hours, plus VAT?

Your biggest hurdle will be trying to get service on the "absent" parent, if that's the problem, but it's not insurmountable, as long as you have tried to find him, or there are reasons why you don't want to ask him.

The court is still looking for the best interests of the child in all this, so barring abduction type cases, the court is not likely to refuse a reasonable request! And I can't think of any reason why permission couldn't be given for future trips at the same time.

Not my area of expertise, but if the destination is within the EU, aren't we all free to move between states without a passport anyway?

CashmereHoodlum Wed 19-Mar-14 12:32:54

How much is a court order likely to cost, does anyone know?

mummytime Wed 19-Mar-14 12:26:09

This is what the Government website says on the matter. If you can't contact the ex or he won't sign you can get a court order. you will not be stopped if you can clearly demonstrate that it is a temporary visit, like a holiday.

Then you will have a court document to demonstrate you have permission.

whatsnext2 Wed 19-Mar-14 12:15:11

Have booked a 50th birthday bucket list holiday to Brazil as single parent. However just discovered Brazil needs to have notarised parental consent for travel. As Ex is unwilling to do any paperwork whatsoever not sure how to manage this. Any advice?

DespicableWee Wed 19-Mar-14 11:57:28

"Some countries are taking the approach that it is up to you to prove you have appropriate authority. So if you are the only person with PR it is up to you to prove that. If you can't you may be refused entry."

I can see their point, and I wholeheartedly agree with the reason this is being asked for. The potential heartbreak and damage caused by a child being abducted to another country and the difficulty in having them returned far outweighs the annoyance of getting together some proof of permission or lack of need for it before a family jolly. But, what proof can there be if a parent has sole PR because the father is unknown, or the NRP disappeared before registering the birth, or the children were born before 2003?

A residency order wouldn't be granted because no one is around to object to it. An SIO wouldn't be appropriate if the NRP is not in contact so not actually objecting, just, utterly absent surely? Is there something else that could be used?

I realise that absent parents without PR is an issue which is going to time out quite soon anyway, with the pre-2003 babies coming of age, but that still leaves a fair few families in this pickle until then.

Sorry for the hijack, moldingsunbeams

cestlavielife Wed 19-Mar-14 11:06:25

will the new child arrangements orders cover this ?
if tehre is a no order principle then clearly there is a gap...as in cases mentioned above where there is no contact or ex is abusive etc as it happens i have a residence order so ok to take children out of country wihtout permission for a holiday. but i could foresee someone in greece etc not understanding the order etc .
i have been asked when coming back into uk from france as to who the kids are (they ahve diff surname on uk passports - on their spanish passports they have ex's name and mine which helps) etc. but just been waved on after saying yes they are mine etc. l

moldingsunbeams Wed 19-Mar-14 08:02:06

In regards to residence order several of my friends havent been hranted residence orders because no one is disputing residence sad

We were stopped in Greece, had our passports taken away and everything while they investigated us both in and out.

prh47bridge Wed 19-Mar-14 00:02:28

How do border control know who does or doesn't have PR for children though

Some countries are taking the approach that it is up to you to prove you have appropriate authority. So if you are the only person with PR it is up to you to prove that. If you can't you may be refused entry.

Perhaps you could persuade the court to grant permission for you to take the children abroad every year for a couple of weeks so you don't need to go back

The other alternative is to get a residence order in your favour. You are then allowed to take the children out of the country for up to one month at a time without needing anyone's consent.

Meglet Tue 18-Mar-14 23:57:06

STIDW thank you, that sounds promising. It would be nice to know we could go to France / Florida when they're older. I'm going to take a look at those forms and cross my fingers.

Meglet Tue 18-Mar-14 23:50:24

nappa good point (although I'm sure the law has a way around it hmm). XP wouldn't know his children if he bumped into them in the street. He wouldn't know we were going on holiday.

STIDW Tue 18-Mar-14 23:50:10

Yes of course a case would have to be brought in order to present a defense but even if there no case it doesn't resolve the problems of being stopped leaving the country as the OP was, or entering another country. Someone last year missed their flight last year because the "absent" parent applied for a Prohibited Steps Order and the hearing was an hour or so before the flight was due to leave. Permission was granted but it was too late.

meglet, in the absence of a solicitor you would need to apply to court for a Specific Issue Order using Form C100 which can be downloaded from the Ministry of Justice website. Perhaps you could persuade the court to grant permission for you to take the children abroad every year for a couple of weeks so you don't need to go back.

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