Non-res ex allowed two boys to sleep with 13-year old daughter in her bedroom.

[tsunami]

I'm extremely unhappy that my 13-year old daughter was allowed by her Dad to have two 14 year old boys stay the night and sleep in her bedroom while she was at his house for the weekend. He has 2 weekends a month with the children; the rest of the time he lives abroad.

He has (I'm pretty sure) NPD, a record of nonexistent boundaries and almost no hands-on experience with the children, but he refuses to listen to me, says our daughter 'was cool' with it (! - when she came home to me she was confused and upset, and clearly shouldn't be making a decision like that at her age anyway. Plus it's now gone all round her school that her 'Dad's a Lad', which is horrible, damaging and upsetting), accuses me of 'judging others by my standards' (what...that it's not a good idea to get in a mess, underage and just 13?) and, refusing to pick up the phone, has now said he won't read any letter I send to him about it. I some time ago gave up attempts at mediation because he denied facts, lied and became very aggressive.

We have 50/50 access (English jurisdiction). Other than the two Friday/Saturday nights per month and three or four weeks holiday per year, I'm the primary carer/resident parent and I look after the children on my own fulltime. I don't want to stop the children seeing their Dad at all, but I must know he's behaving responsibly and keeping them safe.

Previously the same daughter has found sex toys in the house, porn DVDs and - all this totally unprompted - says she regularly hears him and his girlfriend having sex at night. To me, this is abuse. What can I do? Please - any advice really gratefully received.

[Wittsend13]

What do you mean by English jurisdiction? Is your DD born in another country but now resides in the UK?

[tsunami]

@Wittsend (good name) We lived abroad until a few years ago but the divorce/contact order was handled in English court. I live in the UK with the children: not in England. Their Dad in EU but not in UK.

@NatashaBee Her Dad won't try to resolve anything, no matter what anyone says, as he never admits he's in the wrong. He will now listen to whatever the children say, but that leaves, basically, a house full of people unqualified to make adult decisions. I don't mean this simply as an insult: he genuinely has no idea what is appropriate behaviour for children, and the thing is, they love their Dad because he's their Dad. It gets to the point they're being more adult than he is - they go along with things because they 'feel sorry' for him. What happens is that situations like this then arise, that are potentially damaging for the children.

The other thing is, if they contradict him, he loses his rag badly, so everyone walks on eggshells around him. I think you're right about daytimes, but the risk is that she feels 'punished' by me for having boys in her room, or that he gets mad and starts threatening court action again (we've been in and out of court for three years, and I've only just managed to shake the last application off. He likes taking us to court but it's bad for me and horrible for the children).

[Kladdkaka]

Could it be a culture clash? I live abroad, in another EU country. What you have described would be considered perfectly normal and acceptable here.

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

Klsddkava- are you really saying that children hearing adults having sex and finding porn and sex toys is normal????? I find it shocking and completely inappropriate behaviour! I wouldn't be letting my kids anywhere near you

[piprabbit]

Where did the 14yo boys come from? Friends of your DD or her dad?
Who initiated the idea they should stay in her room (and why?)?
Was there no alternative sleeping space - even on the living room floor?

Your DD may actually be relieved to have an adult step in and set a clear boundary (daytime visits only). She might moan that it feels like a punishment, but is likely to be secretly glad that you are taking responsibility for protecting her.

[tsunami]

Kisddkava I understand where you're coming from. In, say, the Netherlands, well-off families (not lower income, though) would be less concerned about this that the culture we live in, which is UK (where you get a reaction like Santa's, who's horrified, like some of my friends who are mothers at our school). English speaking cultures tend to be on varying levels of sexual inhibition but we're generally much higher than the Scandinavians. In France, it would be a no-no, ditto in Spain and Italy. I've lived in all the above (and, by the way, I'm not a 'prude' myself at all). I guess in Denmark or Germany there would be less of a stigma. But this is the UK: the children are at school in the UK. The boys are from a not-particularly-big-town in the UK. My ex is English and went to a private boys boarding school...probably the root of a lot of problems, I'd say...

Personally, I think those countries are a little too relaxed about some images of sexuality which children are exposed to. Women shouldn't be portrayed as sex machines anywhere in the world, but our kids are exposed to those images every day. Children are not adults, end of. Young girls are stinging and hurt after a divorce and it would be normal even for an older teen not to want to see their Dad as a sexually predatory male looking at porn and using dildos, flavoured lubricants etc etc on his girlfriend, or hear their noisy sex.

piprabbit - 'relieved to have an adult step in'/'daytime visits': I think you're right. the message I was getting from her was confusion and regret, a 'yes, I thought it was a good idea, but why didn't Dad say no? I felt bad all night'.
Strongly feel I should go with this but I also know that any intervention on my part will probably result in court action...which I also want to protect her from.
Minefield.

Thanks for your input.

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

I'm certainly not a prude either but children grow up so quickly these days without exposing them to situation you described. I feel for you and know exactly how you feel about being dragged back to court again, I'm currently 2 years into court proceedings and can't ever see an end.
You're daughter may be relieved at daytime visits only and taking into account her age and the allegations surely a court would think you had come up with a sensible solution.
Good luck with it, you're right to be concerned and you can't do nothing or your daughter will suffer

[tsunami]

@Santa - thank you. Ditto with the court: I've just been through about the same amount of time and have just managed to get the latest one vacated.

@babybarrister - oh no! I was deliberately trying not to be too specific. Probably too paranoid... yes, I'm in Scotland. He's coming from France and sees the children in Scotland.

[Kladdkaka]

Santa please can you explain why you've passed a judgment on me and deemed me inappropriate to be around kids?

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

You said that what op had stated was perfectly normal and acceptable. I just wonder if 13 year olds being exposed to such sexualisation is really acce

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

Sorry I phone!! Acce

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

Start again! Acceptable? I just wouldn't want my son exposed to that and I would think it was sad that any Parent would want a child of that age to be knowledgable of sex, porn and dildos. If you think that's ok I would be interested to know how it is beneficial to such a young child. Not really buying the cultural difference thing. My explanation would be that I would jot want a person with those values around an innocent child

[Kladdkaka]

I said it was perfectly normal and acceptable in the country I live in. I did not say that this was my view. You put 2 and 2 together and came up with an insulting 5.

You don't really buy the cultural difference thing? Then you've clearly never spent any time in any of the Scandinavian countries. No watershed on tv; very little censoring (Hip Hip Hora! has a 12 certificate in Sweden but an 18 cert in the UK); topless women in public swimming baths; completely naked people at the outdoor swimming places; no ban on swearing on radio or advertising (I nearly crashed my car the first time I heard a radio presenter swearing his head off at the ice hockey report).

The difference in culture is capture for me across the road in our local hospital/health centre. As you walk in the door there is a small cafe on the left with a children's play area and the doctor's reception and waiting area. On the right is the State owned chemist. The chemist has 3 display windows side by side. The first contains all the antique apotek measuring equipment and bottles. The second contains all the baby stuff. The third is a display of toys of an adult nature, all available to buy in the shop.

I will be honest. Coming from the UK with my catholic school upbringing, it completely freaks me out. But purely from a factual point of view, I live in a country which consistently tops the UNICEF table for child wellbeing. The UK is consistently at the bottom. So they must be doing something right in the way they are raising their children.

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

Fair point, it's all about the outcome and I do agree that the uk has a terrible way of treating our children in some aspects and in general often worries more about upsetting perpetrators than protecting victims. We obviously could learn alot.
I apologise for any offence and i think we probably agree on many levels. I think a happy medium would be good, would be awful to go back to the victorian times of covering up chair legs.
Still think OP's ex sounds like a prize Pratt though!!

[Thumbwitch]

Kladdkaka - just to clarify - would it be perfectly normal and acceptable to allow a 13yo girl to share a bedroom with 2 14yo boys, level of acquaintance unknown? Would that be normal in any European country? Genuinely interested in the answer, not trying to cause problems or offence.

[Kladdkaka]

Yes it would. It's something I struggled with as my daughter was 13 when we moved here. I'd completely freak at the suggestion and all the other parents would look at me like I'd been teleported in from Mars.

On the other hand, I would let my daughter have an occasional small glass of wine (Christmas, weddings etc) and think nothing of it. Here, giving any amount of alcohol to an under 18 is seen as being the same as giving them heroin. Alcohol is very strictly controlled, you can only buy it in the State owned shop and you have to be over 21 and you will be asked for id.

[Santa5l1ttleHelper]

I think it's all about having respect for alcohol, my parents let us have the odd glass at Xmas and I've never been a big drinker but really enjoy a glass of wine when I have one. I'll do the same with my kids and hope it has the same effect.
Sorry op, think I've hijacked your post x