Being gifted and talented

[Hexagon]

Sorry if this topic has come up before.
I have been browsing through various threads on this board and have yet to see an occasion where a parent has described their dc as gifted or talented and they haven't been told by another poster that the child is just "bright". It's almost as though they want to knock the op down a peg or two - or am I misinterpreting?
I would be interested to hear just what it takes to be considered a gifted or talented child here.

[scurryfunge]

The gifted and talented section is a means of boasting how wonderful their DC are.
Most questions are phrased along the lines of "my dd is so fuckingly fantastic I really worry about her".
Some are genuine posts though -just more difficult to spot.

[cory]

I think it depends very much on how the OP is phrased- perhaps too much so.

An OP which is essentially a variation of this:

I am very worried because my 3yo knows the letters of the alphabet and I am afraid she will feel out of place among her less gifted friends when she starts school

or this:

my ds is misbehaving at school and I blame the teacher because he is on the wrong ORT level

will get a less sympathetic hearing than this:

my 10yo is showing a flair for maths and I would really like to encourage this- do you know of any good sites/clubs/additional activities that might be good?

or this:

our dd, who is very academic and a bit quirky, is struggling with friendships and seems a bit isolated. While we are keen to help her acquire the skills to get on with different kinds of people, it would also be nice to help her get in touch with some likeminded children- have you any suggestions? Any organisations or clubs out there?

[cory]

It would also get a better response if posters with a gifted child did not make assumptions about all gifted children based on their own, but recognise that somebody else's totally different experience may be equally valid.

[jeee]

The thing is, gifted and talented is such a wide term (top 10% in the school) that most of the children caught in it are simply bright.

[Hexagon]

scurryfunge - I don't know, it seems more like there's always someone replying who wants to get a boast in. Made up example:
OP "My 2 year old can read ORT level 8 books, do you think I should get him on some kind of gifted programme."
Response "My 2 year old is currently reading War and Peace and I consider her on the bright side of average. Stop showing off!"

PixieOnaLeaf - Is it really that unusual to be gifted? I think most people on here mix up gifted with genius.
The government site describes being gifted and talented like this:
'Gifted and talented' describes children and young people with an ability to develop to a level significantly ahead of their year group (or with the potential to develop those abilities)
That seems pretty vague and subjective to me. It doesn't say anything about needing to be an Einstein.

Cory - I agree with what your saying but it still feels that there are one or two who want to bring the OP down, no matter how genuine they are.

[cory]

It's the thing about semantic fields, isn't it. Otoh you have the word "gifted" in the traditional sense of "really seriously talented in a way that very few people are". (If I read a review about a gifted young musician, I expect somebody who can really give unusual pleasure by their playing, not just play better than the other children in his school). Otoh you have this new government definition, which if put at the standard 10% probably translates as "really quite bright, and a small percentage of these will be gifted in the more traditional sense".

So in responding to a poster, you are left trying to gauge a) what they understand by gifted in the case of their child b) if they appear to be confusing the first and the second type, which one actually applies.

Because that will naturally determine the response. If you have a young Mozart on your hands you will need to do different things to if you have a child who with proper nurturing might get through his piano exams a year early.

I'm using musical example as my db did appear gifted as a child- but in the context of the real world of professional musicians couldn't quite cut it. Not that my parents regretted any tuition they got him as that was clearly a good in itself, but I think they would have regretted it if they had built him up in front of others as having more talent than he did as that could have become very painful for him; the truth was they couldn't know, just saw something there to encourage- I think that was about the right level of response in terms of making his life bearable.

No doubt it often is about wishing to put other people down. But it can also be about not wishing a child to get hurt later on.

[exexpat]

Agree with cory about the definition thing. Most people when they hear 'gifted' think Einstein, Ruth Lawrence, PhDs at age 12, solo concerts by six-year-olds, that sort of thing. But that is what is known as 'profoundly gifted' and is probabably less than 0.01 per cent of the school population. There are a few people on MN with children like this (not me, I have to say - mine are more common-or-garden 'clever' or 'gifted' depending on whose definition you look at); most schools would only have a profoundly gifted child once in a decade or less.

Government/state schools' definition of 'gifted' is the top 10 per cent of the school population and basically does mean quite clever/bright rather than what most people would think of as gifted - the kind of child who is likely to learn quickly and should, with proper teaching and encouragement, go on to get into a good university, get a decent degree in a serious subject and might possibly become a lawyer/doctor/engineer or that sort of thing.

And in between you have what selective schools might see as gifted, ie the seriously bright who are capable of working a year or two ahead of their classmates, going on to get Oxbridge firsts etc. An average non-selective school might have a few of these per year or none at all; some schools (I'm thinking of the ultra-selective London day schools) would have virtually nothing but children like these.

There can be specific problems for parents of all these different levels of 'giftedness' depending on the schools, the families, any other issues they might have (eg it's perfectly possibly to be a gifted underachiever, gifted and dyslexic etc) - and that's what I assume the G&T topic is there to discuss, not for people to argue about who is or isn't gifted.

I think part of the problem is that the official approach to setting up 'gifted' lists or programs is rather half-hearted (possibly because of worries about elitism), and parents who find out their children are on the G&T register aren't told what it really means.

[PuzzleAddict]

It's a cultural thing, no? Part of the Culture of Envy, I suppose.

When I first moved to England I had a housemate who kept going on about how she had suffered from "Tall Poppy Syndrome" as a child, and because of being a foreigner it took me a very long time to really understand (she came from a working class background, was moved up a year in school, and suffered dreadfully socially for being marked out from her peers like that).

Anyway, I am foreign: we admire success. I hear about your bright children, congratulate you for how well they are doing and think what I can do to encourage mine to do that well, too. I look at your much nicer house than mine and ponder how I might have such a nice home one day, too.

Also, in the USA, "Gifted" is understood to encompass the merely bright, not just the Einsteins. MNers seem quite determined in wanting to keep to only an old-fashioned definiton of the term.

Also, I don't care if you are obviously exagerating your child's ability; he's your kid, brag away and be proud of him. Why not? No skin off my teeth if you're right or wrong about it.

[singersgirl]

I've posted this before and I've posted it again.

In my 1991 Collins (British) English dictionary, 'gifted' is described as:

"having or showing natural talent or aptitude: a gifted musician, a gifted performance".

Online dictionary definitions of 'gifted' include: "having special ability in a particular subject or activity", "clever, or having a special ability" and "having a natural ability to do one or more things extremely well".

I think exexpat's post about context is very helpful.

[cory]

"Anyway, I am foreign: we admire success."

Ah, that would depend on which foreigners, Puzzle. Deffo not the done thing in my culture.

Anyway, I don't think most MNers have a problem with an out and out bragging post. People who post with the title I Am So Proud Of Dc usually get a very sympathetic response.

It's the posters who present their child's giftedness as a major area of concern and worry, before anything bad has actually happened, that get on people's nerves. As in "my 3yo knows the letters of the alphabet and I am afraid she will feel out of place among her less gifted friends when she starts school".

[pagwatch]

Puzzle

but then I don't see giftedness as much to do with the parent so I would neither envy nor congratulate.
Having a bright child is a quirk of genes. Parnets who boast about their bright child always strike me as being very stupid.

Boasting about having a very successful child or a polite child or a kind child or a generous, hard working child- attributes where the parent may have influenced I get. And those things I admire and would def congratulate the parent.

But bright? Non

When people come to this topic because they need help or support that is fair enough and I would hope they get support and advice. But many post just to say 'gosh - look, I have a bright child that makes me a good parent'. But it doesn't.

I think parenting a truly gifted child is immensely challenging and I wish this section was a sanctuary for them. But it is not because of the 'clever DD = clever me' posts

[activate]

I have one truly gifted child, a couple of bright ones and a thicko

Don't care so much about the gift - it means he finds it bloody easy so what's to bother about, but when any of them tries really hard at stuff they don't get, when they say "I don't get it I'll just have to try harder" then I am proud

that is the only reason to show pride because being truly gifted means finding things easy and where's the pride in that

[belledechocolatefluffybunny]

A bright child is, for example, able to read about Newtons Laws and understand them, a G&T child is able to read about Newton's Laws, understand them and then apply them to something completely unrelated, preferably as early as possible.

[activate]

totally disagree with the as early as possible but nods along to the resst

[cory]

Now a really clever child, of course, would simply eat the apple

[belledechocolatefluffybunny]

I'm not sure activate, I suppose the earlier the better though.

Eat the apple? They would experiment, then disect it first

[activate]

why the earlier the better - makes no sense

people come into their own at different stages of life - some gifts are apparent immediately, some aren't

my favourite are gifted readers - a phrase that is only used the younger the child is - I love gifted readers - look at us we're all gifted readers and can all read anythign put in front of us - nonsensical

[belledechocolatefluffybunny]

Because if they have been lucky enough to be taught this at secondary school then they will already know about gravity/force. Reading about it isn't the same as seeing it in action, younger children won't have this experience.

[PuzzleAddict]

Apples, pah. My brightest DC ate a cupcake wrapper yesterday .
Of course, then she puked up and I had to clean the floor.
If that's my brightest kid, what hope is there for the others (Holds head in hands).

[belledechocolatefluffybunny]

Ahh, my bright son used to stick wallpaper up his nose.