Positive Reasons for Leaving the EU

(110 Posts)
SpringingIntoAction Thu 05-May-16 23:23:27

To regain our sovereignty and self-determination, which means the right to:

1. Make our own laws to suit our country

2. Trade freely throughout the world

3. Control our own borders

4. Raise our own taxes

5. Defend our own interests

without the interference of the EU

Kelandry Fri 06-May-16 07:27:08

Honestly, I think the whole thing will be positive. People who are going to vote to stay shackled to the EU simply because of 'uncertainty' or cheap roaming charges seem to be....I can't think of the word......shallow?

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Fri 06-May-16 11:52:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kelandry Fri 06-May-16 12:02:59

Being in this trading block does more than compromise our ability to do the above, it controls it totally often to our own disadvantage.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Fri 06-May-16 12:04:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kelandry Fri 06-May-16 12:41:58

Yeah....I've seen the list of 'what has the eu ever done for us', but really? How much of that is just because we live in the modern world. No politician in their right mind would try to get rid of maternity pay, it's just not possible in today's world to ride roughshod over voters opinions. Look at DC on the refugee children.

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 16:49:41

I'm amused that the Leave campaign thinks that the UK is currently unable to raise its own taxes, or that it's being prevented from trading with anyone (unless you're referring to EU sanctions, which tend to concern only the most unsavoury regimes), or that you can enter the UK without going through border controls.

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 16:54:28

The EU frequently steals the glory for many of the successes obtained by others.

It has to because it has nothing else to offer.

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 16:59:46

I'm amused that the Leave campaign thinks that the UK is currently unable to raise its own taxes

Read carefully - Raise own taxes

That means having the ability to raise tax on what the UK itself decides to tax and at a rate set by the UK - not constrained by a range of tax rate set by the EU.

Once we leave the EU the elected British Prime Minister will never again have to plead with the EU to allow him to VAT zero-rate Tampax

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b01bd53c-fc98-11e5-b3f6-11d5706b613b.html

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 17:00:25

More seriously though, when you say "control the borders", what do you mean?

Let's say that it's July 2018 and the UK has left the EU. One of my teenagers is travelling alone to the UK on a French ID card (or passport, if ID cards are no longer accepted). What, concretely, is going to change when he passes through border control at Heathrow or Stansted?

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 17:03:24

What, concretely, is going to change when he passes through border control at Heathrow or Stansted?

Whatever the elected Government of the UK decides - just like most Governments in the world also decide who they will allow to come into the country and who they will refuse.

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 17:15:37

But that's not at all concrete though, is it? It must be possible to imagine some way in which border controls will change, in order that border control agents can be better equipped to secure the borders in a way that they are not able to do now.

Say you're a border control agent. You have in front of you my teenager, carrying a French passport, who looks (like most kids round here do in summer) more than a little bit tanned. His passport says he's 15 and French. How are you going to decide that he is what he claims to be, and isn't a 20-something Syrian travelling on false papers? And most importantly, how will that be different to what happens now?

Visas would help solve this problem of course smile

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 17:22:21

But that's not at all concrete though, is it?

The future is not concrete. You could die tomorrow, I could rop dead in the next 10 minures. Life is about uncertainty - we deal with it.

It must be possible to imagine some way in which border controls will change, in order that border control agents can be better equipped to secure the borders in a way that they are not able to do now.

Blame Cameron. He knows the answer to that one but is with-holding it from you.
Cameron could come out this evening and say 'If we leave the EU will still allow 15 yer old French children (or any other category) to travel to the UK on their ID card/passport.

He won't because that would diminish his Project Fear.

Say you're a border control agent. You have in front of you my teenager, carrying a French passport, who looks (like most kids round here do in summer) more than a little bit tanned. His passport says he's 15 and French. How are you going to decide that he is what he claims to be, and isn't a 20-something Syrian travelling on false papers? And most importantly, how will that be different to what happens now?

As I said before - Cameron knows the answer because post-Brexit he tells us he will still be running the country, so the decision on how the border is controlled is his.

Visas would help solve this problem of course

A lot of countries think so - many countries don't.

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 17:27:25

But you can't claim that leaving the EU will restore "control of our borders" if you have not one single proposal for improving border controls!

C'mon spring, you and your colleagues in the Leave campaign must have at least one idea.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Fri 06-May-16 17:30:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 17:35:17

But you can't claim that leaving the EU will restore "control of our borders" if you have not one single proposal for improving border controls!

Dodgy Dave knows the answer to that question

Ask him.

He won't tell you.

C'mon spring, you and your colleagues in the Leave campaign must have at least one idea

I have loads of good ideas - but I am not the Prime Minister.

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 17:37:02

What will change is that we will no longer be able to stop illegal immigrants at Calais. Sending them back when they rock up at Dover is going to be considerably more of a headache.

That silly argument was done to death weeks ago. The calais border control a bi-lateral UK/French agreement, nothing to do with the EU (for once)

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Fri 06-May-16 17:37:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Fri 06-May-16 17:39:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 17:43:12

Spring, you say that it would be possibles to improve border security by drawing on practices elsewhere. So let's try that. Do you favour visas? Or racial profiling? Or a bit of good old fashioned bribery? Any other ideas?

It's all looking very much like the emperor's new clothes right now. We're going to improve border security - but we have literally no idea how.

Kelandry Fri 06-May-16 17:44:58

But why does the leave side need to come up with concrete garuntees? I mean, we leave, and then we get on with stuff in the best way for us, surely!? We are presented with a problem, we solve it. We solve our problems, not all the problems in all of Europe.

Mistigri Fri 06-May-16 17:49:19

Kelandry but you're the ones claiming that border security is a problem and needs improving. You can't improve something if you have no idea of how to make it better.

The Remain side might on the other hand point to several thousand Syrians/ afghans/ Iraqis etc in Calais and Dunkerque, all of whom would be in the UK right now given half a chance, and say that from the French perspective your border security looks "pas mal".

If the border moves to Dover (I don't agree with eels that this is a dead cert, but it's a risk) then those camps will empty.

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 17:49:28

But why does the leave side need to come up with concrete guarantees? I mean, we leave, and then we get on with stuff in the best way for us, surely!? We are presented with a problem, we solve it. We solve our problems, not all the problems in all of Europe.

Well said.

There are a lot of doom-mongers on this thread.

I am looking forward to the great opportunities that await us when we've shrugged off the dead corpse of the EU.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Fri 06-May-16 17:49:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Fri 06-May-16 17:52:54

But we have perfectly workable ways of doing things now, with the added benefits of cooperation. If you're going to take that away can't you at least come up with some kind of suggestion that might conceivably improve things?

We elect a Government.

They ask - would you like to REMAIN in the EU or LEAVE

We instruct them to LEAVE

The Government then does whatever isn necessary to fulfil that democratic mandate we have handed them instructing them to LEAVE

If Cameron has no idea how to LEAVE he should step aside and let someone who does know how to LEAVE take over his role.

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