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Does anyone know when the change in paternity leave comes in?

13 replies

Laugs · 17/03/2009 08:53

I mean the plan drawn up in 2006 (I think)- that women could take 12 months maternity leave, or women take 6, then men take 6 (3 months paid).

It was due to come in in 2009/2010 originally, but is it still to go ahead? Has anyone heard a date for it?

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flowerybeanbag · 17/03/2009 09:53

Goal is to introduce by the end of this Parliament, apparently, so no change.

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Laugs · 17/03/2009 10:31

Thanks flowerybeanbag. Do you know if that would only apply to parents whose maaternity/paternity leave had not started before that?

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flowerybeanbag · 17/03/2009 10:34

No idea about details, it's all a bit vague still. These things are not usually implemented retrospectively though, so I'd imagine whenever they get round to implementing it, they'll make clear it's for babies due on or after a certain date to allow plenty of time for planning for both parents and employers. It won't be the case that maternity/paternity leave is planned on the basis of existing arrangements, then half way through the leave itself can suddenly change.

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MrsJoeMcIntyre · 17/03/2009 10:41


As you were.
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flowerybeanbag · 17/03/2009 10:43
Grin
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Laugs · 17/03/2009 11:11

Thanks. I wish they'd get on with it, sorry MrsJoe! I can't imagine that many families would take it up initially though, but we would.

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RibenaBerry · 17/03/2009 11:47

Laugs- I wouldn't hold your breath I'm afraid. The fact that there is no set date for implementation is usually a very bad sign for upcoming employment legislation (the agency worker stuff has literally taken about 10 years) and it is a very, very complex system to put in place. Lord Mandelson has also said a couple of times that the current economic situation may result in a bit of a hiatus on the implementation of new flexible working/family rights (whether this is correct, or whether extra rights are exactly what are needed to stimulate the economy is a fierce debate).

TBH, I think it's a pretty badly thought out proposal. Unless two people work in the same company, it is a logistical nightmare for employers and there are a million and one questions about how it would work in practice - for example, if the woman returns to work one day a fortnight, is that 'returning' so that her other half can take leave? What happens if there is a bioligical father and a person who acts as the father and lives with the child? My instinct (and it is only a gut instinct, having seen a lot of employment law proposals come and go over the years) is that it might die a quiet death, to be eventually replaced by a more straightforward increased right for men to take parental leave during the early part of a child's life.

If you get me on my soap box, a right which applied to men and women (independent of whether one has returned to work) would also be good for gender equality - it should at least reduce those ridiculous employers who say "ooh, I don't take on women of child bearing age in case they go off on maternity leave..." because they'd have the same risk with a man.

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MrsJoeMcIntyre · 17/03/2009 11:51
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RibenaBerry · 17/03/2009 12:00

MJM - I hope I'm right too! I'm the legal side rather than HR, but it will be a nightmare if it happens, won't it? Can you imagine having to write to all the other employers and get information on working patterns, return dates, etc (or worse, deal with a central government body co-ordinating this thing).

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Laugs · 17/03/2009 12:21

Well I hope you're not right! But since nothing seems to have been mentioned about it since the initial proposals, I wouldn't be surprised if you are.

I do sympathise that it would make life hard for you, but it would be better for the rest of us, wouldn't it? I think it would make an enormous difference to the way men and women are judged in the workplace, as well as in the home - and for much longer than any maternity/paternity period.

Surely in a downturn it would be a good thing for employers if parents actually chose to work 'flexibly', which usually means 'less'? (disclaimer: I don't really know what I'm talking about on that one though)

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RibenaBerry · 17/03/2009 15:33

Laugs - I think that most HR people and lawyers in the field would totally agree with you that it would be a good thing to have more paternity leave rights for men. I totally agree that it should be up to the family to decide who takes childcare, when and in what proportion.

The thing that annoys HR people is this daft proposal that men can have the rights, but only if their wife/parter decides that she doesn't want them and goes back to work. To me, that still sends a very strong message that the primary right to leave belongs to the mother, and the father is just a back up option.

As you say, it would make life incredibly hard for HR people, but I'm also not sure that it would make life that much better for parents. If this really is about making parenting more equal, why is the right conditional upon the mother going back to work (which is where the minefield of trying to extract information from other employers, working out what on earth happens if the mother says she is returning and then doesn't, etc gets going)?

This is really my soap box if you get me going on it, but what I think would be far, far more helpful is if men could, for example, have the right to up to six months leave, to be taken in a single block (i.e not odd weeks/days) at some stage before their child is a year old (I take six months as an example. Ideally it would be parity, but I think you'd need to work up to that). There must surely be some way of adjusting through the benefits system so that, if the mother has gone back to work, the family does not lose out on maternity pay.

If you ran things that way, it would also have the potential to be more flexible if, for example, both parents worked part time. At the moment, you return to work and that's it for maternity pay, even if you're still in the payment period. How much better would it be if you could return, say, three days a week and keep 2/3 SMP until it ran out?

Fundamentally, it is a bodged proposal because the government isn't really committed to the cost and organisation required to sort this out properly. What they have come up with is impractical and open to all sorts of abuse and litigation. I think that, if they really meant it about flexibility, they'd do something a bit more holistic. The fact that they've gone quiet on the idea suggests to me that they weren't really sure either, and using Lord Mandelson to back away from the idea on the grounds of the economy smacks to me of them realising that it was an ill thought through plan.

Told you it was my soap box. It's not that I don't support better flexibility and rights, it's that I think that these don't go far enough and have the potential to really turn employers off the whole idea (because of the logistical nightmare), entrenching the idea that flexibility/leave is a 'problem'...

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MrsJoeMcIntyre · 17/03/2009 16:10

Vote for Ribena! Can I be your Campaign Manager?

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RibenaBerry · 17/03/2009 21:02

Ha ha ha. Maybe one day...

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