overpayment of wages in public sector - who deals with this, HR or local managers? Urgent.

[itsaJollyHolidayForMary]

Long story, god where to start.

I work for a national government organisation, split into 'areas' and then split into 'divisions' (offices). The budget given from the government is set out to the areas and this in turn is passed to the divisions. I get paid by the 'area' via local government payroll.

I reduced my hours by 37 - 32 hours in 2007. I have been overpaid. I noticed this in Sept, it had occured for around 15 months, but due to various ups and downs in my wages and the way the wage slip was written, I did not notice until Sept when I did a check on my wages to see what an imminent increase would mean for my wages.

When I saw I was being overpaid I went to HR manager who passed this information on to the local payroll officer to sort out. Turns out the paperwork was never received by HR informing them of my reduction in hours, although my previous line manager assured me it was (she kept no copies) and this is not the first time this has happened. Payroll officer said as it was not my error I would pay it back at the bear minimum so as not to cause financial hardship.

Anyway, pay has been adjusted and total amount owed has been confirmed but since sept the payroll officer has not actually got around to sorting out a payment plan to recoup the money.

Since this overpayment was notice by me in sept my DH lost his job in Jan 09, meaning we are down an entire wage. We have cut back on all our finances and as such can not quite make ends meet, as opposed to possibly losing everything.

In feb payroll officer and I made contact to arrange payment, told her financial situation and that I could only afford a token payment until DH gets a job, and then I would re-negotiate pay. She agreed she would talk to HR director (not manager) and sort out something minimal for the time being.

Since then my line manager is involved, and for some reason the local Divisional Business Manager, they now all know my DH has lost his job, they all my personal financial circumstances and they know what reductions I have on my pay (Home computer initiative, pension contribution, Union contribution). My line manger told me that it is her responsibility to recoup the money not the payroll, as the division paid me, they have to take it back, they have to come to an arrangement with me to repay this money. I have never been told by anyone that my information would be shared with more people, and that payroll are not responsible for recouping the money, but in fact my line manager (who has nothing to do with finances) on behalf of the divisional business manager who up to now has had nothing to do with this.

Now, the payroll officer is on leave, my line manager is on leave next week and has told me it will be past over to the divisional business manager to arrange a payment plan with me. She told me the DBM will go and find out if the sum includes payment for superannuities paid by them blah blah, stuff nothing to do with me. I already know the sum is the exact gross figure overpaid as I have been in touch with payroll. I was asked to give an amount I could afford, even though I was told by payroll she would come back to me with a figure. I felt pressured to discuss my personal situation and give a figure on the spot which I will now be held to. my line manager is going to go back to DBM with the figure, who will, if approved take it to payroll and get it sorted. Which would have been done anway, but now everyone knows my business.

I have several concerns:
My personal information has been shared freely amongst members of staff without my knowledge, i feel a bit vulnerable.
My DH is furious that his personal circumstances and financial situation is being discussed by people at my work, which is nothing to do with him.
It feels like the division is bypassing payroll - otherwise they would already have the figures they need, as I already have.
If this is the correct procedure, why would payroll officer not know this, if this has happened before? And why did the HR manager who has worked here for years and years not know to pass it to the division to sort out.
Why would payroll not do this on behalf of the division? Surely the money they recoup would go to the division if it is their money?
Why is all this being passed through this person and that person, and here and there, when the only people who can take money from my account is payroll who are dealing with it anyway?

Oh by the way, our local division has overspent.

[itsaJollyHolidayForMary]

sheeeesh, no-one will read that. I will try to condense it.

[itsaJollyHolidayForMary]

Sorry, I can't condense this, I am too tired. Read it if you have the will

[itsaJollyHolidayForMary]

i know its too long, but if you can bear with it to the end and give me some advice, I would be grateful.

What with bullying, lies, bad management, incorrect storing of my information, discrimination based on my pregnancy and maternity leave, lack of support when my mother died, failure to follow procedures since I have worked in this office, this is just one more thing and I have had enough.

I told my line manager I am close to quitting as its just one thing after another. I can't afford to quit in reality, and I cannot afford emotionally to stay there any more.

I have no problem paying this money back, it was over paid and I had the money, noticeable or not, but surely they cannot make me pay back more than I can physically afford? Especially as it was not my fault? I have done what I can, and am being as flexible as I can. What is the point in working, if working will result in me losing my home?

And is nothing confidential at work? Does everyone really need to know that we are financially screwed ?

[flowerybeanbag]

blimey

My initial thought is that I would certainly hope that overpayment is not such a common occurrence that a set procedure of who deals with it is required, but maybe I am being naive in my expectations of payroll administration in the public sector...

It does sound like it's not being handled well at all, all a bit messy and disorganised. You mention union contributions, are your union helping you? Make sure they do.

You are right to be concerned about the disclosure of all that information to people who don't need to know it, it all sounds a bit out of control.

[flowerybeanbag]

x-posts, sorry you've had such a rough time. Are they actually trying to make you pay back more than you can afford?

[itsaJollyHolidayForMary]

Well, to be honest flowery, right now I cant even afford my council tax! I told my manager £x per month would be the most I could afford and she at first looked surprised. Think she was expecting more than this, but said she would take this back to the divisional business manager. I am anticipating being pressured to pay more than this, and will be pressured to provide justifications for why I cannot.

I am very confused about the whole thing. I had seemed simple. They messed up, I noticed, I informed them, payroll were sorting it, and then for some reason my line manager comes wading in saying she has be told to chase this on behalf of the DBM who I did not even know was involved and I have to give her a figure.

My line manager and DBM both now know my wages, my outgoings, the fact that my DH has lost his job, how much money we have coming into our home and that we cannot afford anything. There is a Divisional meeting next week and I expect I will be discussed there, which means ALL the managers will know my business.

[itsaJollyHolidayForMary]

I am going to talk to my union rep tomorrow, Unfortunately I have had so many problems at work over the years, I now have my own rep who checks up on me each week. On behalf of his predecessor who was my rock for a while. I think he was told to 'look after' me

Current union rep knows about it, he said when I first told him about money overpaid that I needed to contact payroll which was already being done. As far as he knew, this was the process, he never mentioned anything else. However he is has only been a rep for around 18 months, so perhaps does not know the process. When I told him of DH losing job, he said wait for payroll to contact me and offer something to show willing, even if £1. He is a bit green I think.

Tomorrow I am going to talk to him about this new 'episode' but I am thinking of talking to the other rep, who has been a rep for 25 years, now a vice chair of union and told me to keep in touch. He hates the processes in place at my employment and will ensure that the policies in place are followed to the letter. But I guess I do not want to just rely on unions. I want to know myself what I should expect, what my employers might or might not be allowed to do.

Thanks flowery, I knew I could trust you to reply!

I have just had enough. I want to just leave the stinking godforsaken hole. I used to love my job. Now I dread every single day I go in.

[flowerybeanbag]

I think the idea of talking to the other rep is a very good idea. I know what you mean about not just relying on unions, but they can be enormously helpful to employees in this type of situation so do make use of your reps.

In terms of what they are technically allowed to do, in the main an employer can't make deductions from your salary without your permission or alternatively without the contractual right to do so.

However I expect they have put a contractual right to do so in, and also these rules don't actually apply to overpayment. Technically when it's overpayment they could just take it all back straightaway.

However in the circumstances this of course would not be reasonable and your union can help you emphasise your willingness to put it right promptly and your employer's cock-ups to help you get the best arrangement you can.

[itsajollyholidayformary]

I have spoken with my union rep this morning. He is quite outraged that they have spread my information around so many people without me being involved in the discussions or being informed of who else would be involved. He said he can completely understand why it would feel that my personal finances are being freely discussed amongst colleagues.

He is drafting an email on my behalf and sending to all those involved, including the directors, stating that this is a private matter which was being dealt with appropriately, and the intrusion unnecessarily of further parties is infringing my confidentiality and privacy. He wants an explanation of who is involved, and the reasons of their involvement. He is also advising them to stop this multi-person involvement in my private affairs and insisting that only those for whom it is essential to be involved continue to do so from now on. Or words to that effect. He will also advise them it would not be sensible to discuss my personal situation in the next divisional meeting of all the managers (where budgets are discussed, and likely to be a topic given their overspend and the imminent end of the financial year).

I have also emailed the old union rep, who no longer works in the office but continues with staff involvement when he deems his expertise is required and his response was 'CALL ME. ASAP' but alas I was not in, and now he is not in!

[BetsyBoop]

I used to work in payroll for a large public sector org many moons ago, so things may have changed (in fact I believe for that particular org the payroll has been outsourced, so heaven knows what happens now )

It was always payroll that sorted out repayment of any overpayment

If it was just an o/p in one month it could be recovered the following month (& written in people's contracts to that effect) unless the person appealed as they disagreed it was an o/p - which you've said you are happy with the actual amount of o/p?

If the o/p was over 2 or more months then installments would be agreed, but the general expactation was that the o/p would be repaid in no more than 12months (the theory being that it had either been too small to notice, so 12months to repay was no hardship, or if it had been a larger amount the person must have known & had a duty to report it ASAP - as per staff handbook.)

Only once do I remember it not being handled by payroll & it went to the UG7 to handle as the person was claiming extreme hardship - they ended up agreeing a slightly longer payback period.

I can see the need for ONE person outside payroll/HR to be involved in your case, (with your prior agreement or course)but no way should they be bandying (sp?) your personal information around so many people like that, you are right to be annoyed.

PS
Flowery - if the payroll I worked on was typical, you'd be amazed how many overpayments there were, with all the changes in hours, substitution payments, temporary promotions, special allowances etc, when payroll were either informed too late or not at all that something had changed. There were umpteen procedures covering it all

[susia]

not really related but I work in the public sector and once years ago was underpaid for about 6 months. The reason I didn't notice for that long is that I have other business work that I do and my tax for that is taken directly out of my wages. It was partly my fault for not noticing but the way I was treated was disgusting.

Firstly I mentioned it to personnel and they openly didn't believe me, then I went to my boss and she accused me of thinking I should be earning more and basically lying. I suggested going to my interview notes as I was employed at the middle of a grade (not the bottom as is usual)and stayed at that for a while until it was supposed to go up incrementally but actually went down! Anyway, she said they wouldn't still have the interview notes from 2 years earlier!

Finally I emailed my line manager who was on maternity leave at the time and she confirmed it to personnel and my boss.

Did I get an apology? no, nothing. The only thing my boss said was that I could use it for a holiday.

5 years later, I am still disgusted by the whole thing as I am with you. It should not the employees responsibility to make sure they are not over or under paid. They should get it right and I don't believe you should have to repay anything.

That said you probably may have to and I hope that it works out for you.

[flowerybeanbag]

Hi Betsy

[itsajollyholidayformary]

Thanks for your messages all.

So far, this has happened. I spoke to union rep who sent an email saying as below.

I then spoke to the old union rep who can't represent me as he currently only deals with people at risk of losing their jobs (he has bigger fish to fry basically!) and we spoke at length off the record. He is absolutely furious. He said this behaviour is contrary to our business plan which states (and he gave me subsections) that no private information will be passed to any source who has no need to know, and confidentiality between staff was paramount. Cant remember the wordings, but something like that.

His attitude is to forget niceness and, oh lets not get even more people involved, I am just letting you know I am upset. His advice was to put in an immediate formal greivance that personal and private information has been passed to people who should not know (only me and HR should know about this). In particular he thinks I should put in a greivance regarding my manager as she clearly has no training, experience or understanding of HR issues and as such is not qualified to re-coup this money. He also said that she has clearly overstepped her role by even attempting to discuss an issue with me that she is not employed to do and should not know anything about in the first place.

He also said he thinks I should tell them I am not paying and cite the Mistake in Fact criteria, which he believes I might be able to fulfil, and then negotiate a total amount to pay upwards of nothing and on my terms, especially as he said it is likely that if I had not pointed it out, it would have gone unnoticed for a long time/forever.

[itsajollyholidayformary]

Basically, my old rep told me that no way should I lie down and take this, if this happens, got knows what they will try to get away with in the future, not the paying the money back, but the open discussion about my private business, and in particular my line manager thinking it is appropriate for her to decide to recoup money she is not authorised to take. He feels it this goes unchallenged it will open the can for other stuff in the future, what will she think she can have involvement in regarding her staff. I have to play it harsh and fast - He thinks I should put the gloves on and fight.

[flowerybeanbag]

I think what you mentioned in your last post is a bit harsh and overdramatic tbh. I agree it has been a major cock-up, a complaint is warranted absolutely. But saying that it will 'open the can' for involvement in staff's private business is a bit over the top imo.

She's messed it up, or rather they all have, but I doubt there was any malice involved or any deliberate attempt to invade your privacy. It's just a bad mistake, which they obviously should be held accountable for.

I doubt your manager could just recoup money, and I would also assume that line managers do have at least some authority in terms of agreeing repayment amounts, although I don't know. She certainly doesn't sound well-trained, but presumably the level of authority she has is based on her role, not on union rep or others' opinions as to whether she's any good or not.

I agree you should stand firm though, and make a complaint.