Flexible working - what happens if my request is refused?

[DrowningInClutter]

I'm hoping there'll be someone out there who has some experience or knowledge of this. Sorry it is a bit long...

My boss seems to be trying to make life difficult, I've requested 2 days and he wants me to do 2 and a half. At the moment I'm a bit in limbo as I'm not entirely sure whether my request is being refused or if we're still negotiating the options that are available.

The half day would mean a lot of travel for not very much actual work and makes childcare impossible difficult.

I've made every effort to be flexible so I've said I can work any 2 days and I'm open to taking phone calls in my own time if anything urgent comes up. I've also offered to take a sideways move into a different area if that could be more easily accomadated (same job grade but very different role).

Because it's all still quite up in the air I don't really want to involve the union if it's not necessary and I'd rather keep everything as amicable as possible. However I feel my boss is creating difficulties as a way of making my life complicated rather than working to find the best solution for his team. I'm not that high up and I'm certainly not irreplacable. The logic behind the 2 1/2 day scheme is that he'd want overlap between jobsharers where we could communicate but I can't see why this can't be done by phone on a 2 and 3 day split.

How much is it my responsibility to prove the half day isn't vital and how much is the onus on my boss have to prove that it is? What are my rights here?

Any help much appreciated.

[fledtoscotland]

the only experience i have of flexible working is the mess my manager has got us into at the moment. She seems to believe that she doesnt have to follow the BERR procedures so although she has refused my request, she wont put it in writing. the unions are now involved and if there is no resolution by this friday, it becomes an official grievance

my understanding is that your boss has to respond with their decision within the timescale and then you can appeal. this is before the unions are involved. www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=803

(sorry i cant do the link thing but this is the website address

hth

[DrowningInClutter]

I hope your situation works out, that sounds pretty grim.

The website is useful although I really hope we don't end up going down that road. I'd prefer to have a quiet life...

[lovelylullaby]

Could you ask to work from home on the half day, so it cuts out all the travel?

[fledtoscotland]

same here. i work in the NHS which is the most unfamily-friendly employer. have actually had a meeting with my manager where she said that the NHS didnt have to comply with employment law

it depends on which industry you work in, but my union (RCN) have their own document detailing flexible working laws which i took to the meetings. its fairly self explanatory but she still doesnt believe me

[HappyMummyOfOne]

Drowninginclutter, to be honest I think they would show good reason to have an overlap to do a hand over. Lots of job shares have a hand over period to discuss files etc.

They are being reasonable in that they have considered your request and are willing to split the role into job share rather than declining the request as they are under no obligation to grant it if they can show it will affect the business.

Your childcare concerns dont come into it i'm afraid as they are not your employers concern so you need to keep that aspect out of the request.

[susia]

Hi, I work as a manager for a local authority and have dealt with requests for flexible working. The employer only has to consider your request and can actually refuse it if it is not reasonable for them for practicle service delivery.

That said most requests for either 3 day or 2 day weeks are considered reasonable (as are 2 and a half day).

I am currently in a similar situation with an employee who wants to return for 3 days per week and it would have been far easier if she had wanted 2 and a half days as that is easier to fill. I have accepted her request though as it such a usual request.

When I first returned to work I had to do 2 and a half days (I wanted 3).

I think it depends on whether it is reasonable that they fill the rest of the job and if they feel that 2 and a half days is easier to fill they may have half a day uncovered.

[DrowningInClutter]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm pretty certain that any handover could be dealt with by phone, e-mail, live-meeting (this is the 21st century after all). I have a fairly bog standard job and there's not really that much complex stuff to pass on.

I am pretty certain I can make a valid case for why the arrangement wouldn't work for the team I'm in just not sure how much it's up to me to do this and how much it's my boss's responsibility to make the case for why it is necessary.

[lisa111]

Hi Ladies,
Its up to your manager, but they must follow ACAS Guidelines no matter what.

NHS Staff have a HRP6-Flex Work Policy

I have mine in 10 days, I want to do just 3 days. instead of 5 days.
"i will take son out nursery for 2 days"
"I look after my sick mum"
"I will gain new skills go to college.

She has driven me to this by always getting on my back, havin a go at me 2-3 times a day.

Occy Health state my case is covered by the Disibility Discrimination Act, she made me this way.

[fledtoscotland]

lisa111, what is HRP6-Flex Work Policy?

the union hasnt mentioned it to me at all. they have said that the NHS must follow the BERR request for flexible working same as any other employer.

[lisa111]

ALL NHSTRUSTS MUST HAVE A HR POLICY AND PROCEDURE LOOK AT MY NHS WIRRAL SITE.

just click the link and use the left hand side hr click to find all policies,

www.wirral.nhs.uk, or www.acas.co.uk.

good luck chck xxxx

[fledtoscotland]

I know. My trust has a policy but flexible working is an informal arrangement between the line manager and the staff member. the RCN have advised me that the HR policy must be an interpretation of the law not "instead of" as my manager has told me.

my line manager just keeps saying that "the needs of the service" mean that they dont have to follow the BERR / DTI legistation.

[fledtoscotland]

thanks lisa111. am going to print off the wirral policy for future reference . it proves that the NHS does have to follow the legislation as the flow chart is the same as the BERR one. there is no mention of this "needs of the service" excuse.

you have really made my night . my manager had my request in writing on 2nd november, had the meeting 12 jan and i still not have heard from her. I wrote to her on the 15th Jan asking for her decision in writing and that was 14 calender days today.

The unions wade in tomorrow

[lisa111]

Have you tried the HSE web site or ACAS seems wrong to me!!!! special leave policy hrp10 do they have this as well. check with your working family advisor your mnager may be full of c**p

[lisa111]

well she is in deep s**t, policy clearly states dates. Union should tell you to put in a grievence DIGNETY at work good luck and let me know how u get lisa.piercy

[fledtoscotland]

have you met my manager as you seem to have hit the nail of the head [grin}

the RCN said that I will need to start a grievance procedure as she hasnt followed the BERR legislation and is been going on for 3months already without her putting her decision in writing.

i'm just collecting "evidence" to strengthen my case as i presume the next step is a meeting with my manager, HR, and the union rep. with the document you send me the link for, i can show her that other NHS trusts follow the legislation.

[fledtoscotland]

sorry to pick your brains lisa, but do you know what happens with the formal grievence? TIA

[lisa111]

also a hrp4 dignity at work is a good 1.

She lied to you, does she go on at you? set unrealistic targets? make you feel stupid and blame you for things in front of ppl, or the sly cow gets u in office an says stuff.

honey this is my night-mare but at last I will not be bullied, victimised, or threatened anymore. her belittling days will be short lived. I am in Unison btw xx

[fledtoscotland]

thanks. will save a copy of that too. she's just incompetent. she is so certain that she's right. its not even that she's declined my request so much as think that she's above it.

(drowinginclutter - sorry for the hijack)

[llareggub]

Just before you jump down the grievance route, think about what you want to achieve. In my experience, grievances take you down a path of no return. Yes, you may "win" but in doing so you are likely to feel nothing but anger and hostility for your organisation. If you lose, you'll feel 10 times worse and be no further forward.

I don't know where you've got in terms of the procedure but the NHS is not exempt from the statutory procedures, which are outlined www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10037051 here.]]

Have a read of the link, and write a formal letter outlining your request AND the process that your manager needs to follow, referring to the statutory procedure. Copy to HR, too.

Now, you've already had a hint from your manager that she wants a good handover period. Present the business case for alternative methods in your letter. Its up to you really to make a good business case for 2 days, and the stronger you make it the more chance you have of getting it accepted. At the end of the day, so long as they can justify their decision, they can refuse you. So make it hard for them by presenting a sensible business case.

Good luck!

[llareggub]

here

[fledtoscotland]

llareggub. thanks for the post. i'm not sure what options i have really. i have put the request in writing to her, phoned her three times before she would actually discuss it with me. eventually she arranged a meeting with me and her manager. they have agreed a temporary agreement that could be revoked by them at any time, i have already had a 3month trial period during which no objections were raised.

i have written a formal letter to them asking for their decision on my request.

my manager just keep on saying that they dont have to follow legislation.

my problem is that if the "informal" arrangement gets revoked (and because its informal they dont have to give a reason) then i'm left high & dry with childcare as my family live in a different country.

they have agreed to me doing the pattern i've requested on an "informal" basis so i dont get why its so hard to make it permanent. Am still struggling to understand how such a simple thing has become such as nightmare with her refusing to talk/write to me

[llareggub]

Trouble is for them, there is no such thing as a temporary change under the statutory scheme. Any change agreed under flexible working regs is permanent. That might give you a bargaining chip! Did you say whether or not you were in the union? I can't remember.

[llareggub]

I wonder why on earth she thinks the legislation doesn't apply to her? Can you give HR a ring and have a chat with someone there? Let them know what has happened and how you feel you have no where left to turn...

[fledtoscotland]

HR also think that they are exempt even though i have a letter from them saying that "although NHS * doesnt have a formal flexible working policy we follow the appropriate legislation". the HR manager then said that because its the NHS they are exempt from making permenant changes because, and this is in her words, "in case there is a flu epidemic"

i;m a member of the RCN.

at the meeting with my line manager and her manager, i did take a copy of the BERR guidlines for application. they just said it wasnt applicable. they know that i have taken advice from the unions as i CC'd the last letter to my manager to her manager, HR and the union rep

where do i go now apart from the official route?

[llareggub]

I've never come across anything which says that the NHS is exempt from employment legislation. I guess you will have to make it official. Are you a health care practitioner or administrative staff? Not that it makes a difference, really.

You could always add into your letter that in the case of a flu pandemic you'll make the appropriate arrangements, where possible, to cover for colleagues. I should add that I've read the HR NHS guidelines for dealing with a flu pandemic and it is pretty clear that they aren't expecting parents and carers of elderly people to be able to work necessarily (I'm paraphrasing) so I'm surprised at their attitude. Talk to your union rep, and if possible get the full time officer involved as they tend to be more experienced than the stewards, who are often colleagues.