How do I handle my second grievance meeting?

[MumtoBen]

I have already been to the stage 1 grievance meeting a few weeks ago. I spent 2.5 hrs presenting my case and answering questions to an 'independent' panel. It was very stressful. In their written response they mainly just repeated back my case to me. The one action they promised was not done. I feel like I have completely wasted my time in explaining my case and the organisation are just not prepared to do anything to resolve the issues. However they were forced to admit a few things that will help my case.

My case has now been assessed by my home insurance (who think I have a good case) and has been taken on by a solicitor who will help me submit to a tribunal.

The internal grievance process is in 3 parts and the stage 2 meeting is next week. I don't want to waste my time going through my whole case again (and I had to submit my case in writing as well, which was really detailed).

From what has been said to me from panel 1 I have no belief that it will be resolved via this process and I am no longer an employee of the organisation since I was forced to resign.

I don't feel like I want to present my whole case again. They have it all in writing anyway. But I am prepared to answer any questions. Is this reasonable or not? All I am interested in is if they reveal anything else that helps my case. And to get through the process until I get to the tribunal. Am I missing something in the point of this process?

[flowerybeanbag]

MumtoBen is this second stage the appeal? Normally you'd have a grievance meeting, they'd then respond and uphold it or not, or say what action will be taken, and you would be given a chance to appeal the decision, which would be another meeting usually with someone different.

Is this the appeal? I assume it must be. I think it's perfectly reasonable of you not to go through it all again. WHoever will hear it will have the written grievance and should have read it together with the notes from the first meeting. They may have questions obviously, but there should be no need for you to present the whole case again.

Have you spoken to your solicitor about it? There is something called the 'modified' grievance procedure, which is a much shortened version, just put it in writing and get a written response. This procedure is sometimes used when the person is no longer an employee. Might be worth asking your solicitor about it, although if the appeal meeting is next week it's not long anyway.

The point of the process is to give your employer every opportunity to put right what's wrong, which is fair, although when you have to go through what seems like a lengthy farce, it doesn't seem fair.

[MumtoBen]

Thanks flowery.

The grievance process is 3 stages. Usually 1st stage with line manager, 2nd with senior manager, 3rd with board member. They have decided to hold stage 1 with independent panel, and same for stage 2, since the grievance is against my manager and senior manager. I will have to go through this for a 3rd time when it gets to the next stage. The 2nd and 3rd stages are appeals.

Only found out this morning that I am getting my legal expenses paid and I should hear tomorrow from the solicitor to arrange an appointment. Hoping to see the solicitor some time next week if possible.

I have good reasons to think it will continue to be a farce. I had already complained to the CEO 18 months ago about the treatment by this same manager about staff on maternity leave and she did nothing to resolve it. Now I have suffered discrimination from the same person while I am on maternity leave. HR know exactly what is going on as so many staff have complained against this same manager to them.

[flowerybeanbag]

That's a ridiculous process in your circumstances. Fine have an independent panel as the two people you are complaining about would normally be the first and second process, and of course you should still have the right to appeal it, to the board or whoever, but what's the point of two independent panels then the board!

Do try and meet with your solicitor as soon as you can, possibly a strongly-worded letter from them about it not being reasonably practicable for you to have to go through such a long-winded process when you have left employment might not go amiss.

[nervousal]

I would have thought though that you wouldn't have a choice and that you'd have to go through the formal process (even if it is unreasonable) Once to get to tribunal stage (if it goes that far) then can't you use the unreasonableness of the procedure as another point in your favour?

[sweetie66]

Mumtoben I have just been through exactly the same process as you. In my case I at the second appeal I had to state my case all over again as the panel was different to the first one and was therefore not supposed to know anything about the case and be impartial. I was not allowed to have a solicitor present (although they had helped me prepare my case) until I had been dismissed. At the second appeal they were able to overrule any decisions made during the first one. They also assess whether you and the employer have fulfilled their obligations regarding the recommendations from the first appeal. If they haven't you need to have evidence as to why you think they haven't (sorry hope that makes sense but you have to prove they have not done what they said) My solicitor advised me to go through all the company/legal process as this would be used in a tribunal. Like you mine was a complete farce, manager did not like me (I had done the same job for 10yrs but suddenly she said I wasn't doing it right) and was clear both personnel and management were backing her up rather than me. I proceeded to go to a tribunal, they got worried and settled. Left a foul taste in my mouth that I could be treated like this (huge well know company) but I did feel I had "won" as they backed down. Funny enough horrible manager now been moved and been told they are trying to get rid of her! I wish you luck, have faith in yourself and don't let them get to you.

[MumtoBen]

Thanks for your posts.

That's a good point nervousal. Hopefully can use it in my favour. The policy doesn't say I have to present again, but HR have pencilled in 3 hours for the meeting so I am assuming they will expect me to. Also, the grievance policy is not technically the organisation's policy. 2 organisations were disbanded in Oct 2006 and a new one set up. They have still not formally adopted a grievance policy, they are still using the previous organisation's policy (which has not existed for 19 months!).

Sweetie, they said they would send a business justification document with the grievance response, why my secondment was refused (which is 1 part of my case). They didn't! And I have put this in writing to them. And they have still not sent it!

[sweetie66]

Hi Mumtoben. Funny enough that is what happened to me! I got the first copy of the appeal meeting but did not receive anything after the second one. This meant I was unable to see how they had reached this conclusion. Keep copies of anything you have which shows you have requested the document and they have not sent it. I had e-mails etc which were all used by my solicitor. I was also refused moving to another dept which I felt would have been the answer as it was clear there was a personality clash with my manager. Again they offered no reason as to why this was refused so this was good evidence for me. Document all phone calls etc that you make to them to show you have been proactive in trying to sort this out. Although the company might not have finalised their grievance procedure they still have to follow legal guidelines. I found ACAS were really good at helping me with this. They have a helpline so it might be worith giving them a call. I also made sure that although my solicitor was not allowed to be present that the company knew I was using one. 3 hours seems about right to me. Don't forget if you need to tell them you want to take a break. Also not sure if you have done this previously but you are allowed to take someone into the meeting with you. They can be an employee or a union rep (if you have one) they cannot be a relative. This person can take notes but cannot interrupt or speak on your behalf. I did this and the notes they took were excellent to check against what the HR dept gave me. Hope this helps

[MumtoBen]

Hi Sweetie,

Thanks for your advice. I have prepared my presentation and your post was helpful in helping me think about the actions and what they haven't responded to.

I had written to the HR member of the panel who responded to me & said I did not receive the document I was promised. A week has gone by and nothing...until today. They e-mailed it to me today and my grievance hearing no 2 is tomorrow. Obviously deliberate. I am assuming this is standard tactics then!

The notes of the 1st grievance meeting had many noticable ommissions.

I cannot get hold of my union rep, despite ringing, e-mailing and writing to her. Probably just as well since she was not that helpful in stage 1. Their policy luckily says I can bring a friend not acting in a legal capacity, so I am taking my husband. I think I read on the ACAS website he can't respond for me, but can ask questions.

[flowerybeanbag]

mumtoben hope it goes well tomorrow. Your husband can make statements on your behalf and can ask questions but can't answer questions directed at you.

If you have just received the relevant document, I would make it very clear on the record that you did not receive it until today and therefore have not been given reasonable time to consider your response to it.

[MumtoBen]

Thanks Flowery. Will do. I don't believe this document was even produced when panel 1 made their decision. The document wasn't created until last Friday (no date when produced contained in the document & as I have an electronic version I can see when the Word document was created).

[MumtoBen]

Also, they have advertised my job today on the internet.

They have not yet accepted my resignation in writing, only verbally said in the grievance meeting they would accept it if they upheld the manager's decision (which they did). I still have my ID badge (I work for the NHS), security pass to the building, still on the payroll as they haven't sent leavers form, haven't sent an exit questionnaire.

[flowerybeanbag]

MumtoBen interesting they've advertised your job. I would suggest putting that on the record as well, saying that you don't believe it's appropriate to advertise your job until this is resolved.

However bear in mind this is a lengthy process, you are clear that it's only a case of going through it to enable you to put in a tribunal claim, you are not working there at the moment, and presumably not being paid, and they have a vacancy to fill. It sounds as though the leavers administration stuff hasn't been done, which is fair enough given what's happening. A tricky situation for all - worth mentioning but not actually too horrendous.

[MumtoBen]

I will put that on the record as well. Clearly reinstatement is not an option!! Need to clear up with them leavers admin stuff, though they should have sorted that out already.

I am clear this is a process just to get to tribunal now. Probably not good for them that I have NHS ID, slight theoretical risk to the organisation (obviously not going to do anything though).

[MumtoBen]

And my job has been advertised as full-time and said you need full-time experience. They have got what they wanted now.

[TheBlonde]

Just popping on to say good luck

[MumtoBen]

Thanks TheBlonde. Hope you are OK. Start a new job next week and feeling a lot less tired now (still bf but only 2 feeds a day as of last week).

[flowerybeanbag]

MumtoBen you start a new job next week? Does your solicitor know this?

The reason I ask is because if you are bringing a tribunal claim for unfair or constructive dismissal, any compensation awarded will be based on the financial loss you've suffered. If you have a new job already your financial loss will be nil or small and it may well not be worth your while bringing a claim anyway.

If I've not got the wrong end of the stick and you have a new job, please please mention it to your solicitor as soon as possible - I wouldn't want you to go through all this unnecessarily.

[MumtoBen]

Yes the solicitor knows this. Part of the case is that they refused a secondment, despite many precedents and they have refused to give a reason why. The solicitor thinks the case is a sex discrimination case, as there are so many other things they have done to me (restructured the team which impacts on my job, given me low priority and less favourable work, bullying - the list is v long).

My job is not permanent, it is temporary. Not in it for the money although I have suffered financial loss.

[flowerybeanbag]

Phew, that's ok then. Well obviously it's not ok, but you know what I mean! Just thought I ought to check.

[MumtoBen]

Thanks Flowery! My annual leave lost alone is close to £2K. Although lucky me that I have accrued such generous annual leave entitlements.

[sweetie66]

Good luck Mumtoben. Definitely use the job advert as amunition. Clearly shows they have already made a decision and this is a mere formality. With regard to the bullying, if you have any evidence at all, either someone over hearing it or written down make sure you use this at the hearing. I kept e-mails which were bullying and used them at my appeal. I am keeping everything crossed for you!

[MumtoBen]

Thanks everyone for your support. I used all the things you said. I really appreciate it.

Sweetie, Have evidence for the bullying - it's over a long period of time. Have witnesses and have extensive notes thankfully.

Ended up there for 3 hours again. One member of the panel was against me from the start. We overheard them talking outside the room before we went in which was useful. By the end they understood exactly what I was saying. But I don't think they will agree with me when it comes to issuing the decision though. Will get the decision next week.

Might be asking for advice on stage 3 v soon!

[sweetie66]

Mumtoben, glad it went well (sort off!) Don't worry about the person against you (there is always one isn't there?) as it has to be a decision made by all of them. A week seems like a long time but I hope it will pass quickly for you. Have you had any thoughts as to what you will do next depending on the outcome? I know it seems horrid but it might be wise to have a plan of action. Easier to do this now while you can calmly think about it rather than when you actually receive a decision.

[MumtoBen]

Sweetie, yes I have already decided to appeal (again) if it is not satisfactory. I have to update my document of events and can refute the long-awaited business case in writing in the meantime.

Spending today getting copies of my evidence for the solicitor so I can send it off tomorrow and hopefully meet with her.

Seems like it is taking over my life as all this takes so much time.

Hopefully will get most of the work out the way before I start work next week.

[sweetie66]

Mumtoben, any news yet? Been thinking about you.