Is this fair? Or legal?!

[bohemianbint]

Apologies in advance if I get all ranty but I'm having a real strop.

Basically, DP was made redundant last year about a month before I went on maternity leave. He's in I.T. and didn't find it as easy as he thought to get contract work. He was out of work until around 3 months ago when he got offered a job which is much more specific than his previous role and requires a lot of extra learning, for £6k less pa than he was on. Needs must and all so he took it.

He's not really been happy there but it turns out that when he accepted the job they said there may be occasional overtime, which is fair enough. After he's been there for a couple of weeks turns out that there's mandatory overtime pretty much every week, which was not made clear from the outset. So basically some days he'll start work at 8.30am, work til 9pm, then be back in the next day at 8.30am. There's also some weekend work involved.

Anyway, what's just really annoyed me is that DP's just emailed to tell me that he's been given his work schedule for June, and in addition to working o/t in the week, he's down to do 1 day in every single weekend in the month.

I know it might sound really selfish but this then means by default that I'm also looking after our 9 month old baby all the time with no help, I'm struggling to do that and keep on top of the house which is going to rack and ruin, DP and I never see each other at all and when we do we're both so tired that we practically kill each other. I have so many things that I need to get done at that moment which just doesn't happen while I'm looking after DS, and I'm just watching all these things piling up, not getting dealt with and it's really stressing me out.

Personally I think it sounds totally dodgy that they weren't straight up about this overtime. But also aren't there certain directives about how many hours you need between shifts of a certain length? And is it really ok to expect him to work for 26 days out of 30? Is there anything that DP can do, apart from look for another job which he is doing?

Cheers for any advice, sorry it was a bit long winded and ranty.

[bohemianbint]

bump - please help!

[Tortington]

theres a mumsnetter called kimi something i think shes a hr guru.

have you got a copy of the original contract?

if not get one. that clearly states whats what.


isn't there a rule as to how many hours one can work anyway?


your dh also need to speakt o a hr person regarding fleci time and time off in leui.

if he is contrcted to work say 40 hours per week and is working 50 its his reposnability to claim the time back.

ultimatley if he is willing to create waves then promotin is out of the question adn he shouldlok for another job.

join a union and after you have been there a onth you can ask their legal people.

[themoon66]

I think (but not sure without checking) that the European Working Time Directive states that 46 hours is the max anyone can work in any week.

[bohemianbint]

Cheers Custardo. It's a bloomin nightmare!

[bohemianbint]

thanks themoon66. Am having a shufty at the Tiger site as we speak...

[teafortwoandtwofortea]

Echo everything custardo said. I think a good agency for employment advice is acas if your DP doesn't have a union - see here

[Bellie]

You are probably not going to want to hear this but....

The working time regulations are

a limit of an average of 48 hours a week which a worker can be required to work (though workers can choose to work more if they want to).

a right to 11 hours rest a day.

a right to a day off each week.

a right to an in-work rest break if the working day is longer than 6 hours.

a right to 4 weeks paid leave per year.

So unfortunately I am not sure that dh's employers are doing anything legally wrong - but it certainly is not good working practice.

As custardo says get a look at the original contract as if it does not state that it is compulsory overtime but optional he can argue that he does not have to do it.
Definately join a union but ultimately he may need to look for another job if he does not want to fight them.

Sorry - it sounds awful and I hope you can sort it out

[Lilymaid]

You DH may also have had to sign himself out of the working time directive requirements. I was asked to where I work, but refused (only have to work overtime rarely so would never go over the limit anyway)

[DontCallMeBaby]

I think (this is certainly the way we do things) that in order for a worker to 'choose' to work more than the average weekly hours stipulated in the working time regulations s/he has to formally opt out of the regulations, ie sign something. It's not enough for an employer to claim that someone kept turning up for the hours they were supposed to do, they have by implication opted out of the regulations. Can't do the sums, but this (the 48 hours per week averaged over 14 weeks, I think) seems the mostly likely rule the employer could be breaking.

[bohemianbint]

cheers everyone.

Have just found the contract and it says:

"Hours of Work
your normal hours of work are 37 1/2 per wk, between the hours of 8am-9pm Monday to Sunday with a 60 minute unpaid break each day. You maybe required to work additional hours when authorised and as necessitated by the needs of the business."

So do you think that gives any scope to challenge them on it or is it just tough luck?

One of the worst things is that because he's doing different shifts from one week to the next it's not like I ever even get time to myself or the opportunity to go out in the evenings, and DP gets no time to himself ever either. It massively sucks!

[Lilymaid]

I think it is tough luck as the employer will almost certainly have required DP to sign a form opting himself out of the Working Time Directive conditions. I think the rules about breaks only apply to certain sectors - especially transport - and to young people.
Sorry, it doesn't make it easier for you or DP and I hope he can find something with more suitable hours (for human beings!) in the near future.

[bohemianbint]

Cheers Lilymaid. Ah well, he is looking for something else as we speak.

[chocolatekimmy]

They have covered themselves with regards to hours - 'as necessitated by the needs of the business'. All they need to do is quote that section.

Can he check if he has opted out of the working time directive?

Basically they are behaving pretty badly however they are not in breach of contract. He could raise it informally with his boss however they are not obliged to do anything and I suspect they might just have a like it or lump it attitude by the sounds of it.

There is an implied condition of mutual trust within each contract of employment - not something that is actually written down - it just exists. The only thing is that he can't go down that route and resign/claim constructive dismissal until he has been there for a year.

Is he getting paid for it - that would be an advantage for now and something positive to think about until he gets another job. Sadly some employers are deceitful and you just have to cut your losses and move on. I know that is easier said than done and its pressure on you and your relationship but theres not a huge amount you can do unfortunately.

[chocolatekimmy]

PS: CUSTARDO - did you mean me? (please say you did - will make my day!)

[BetsyBoop]

if your DP has opted out of the WTD (albeit unwittingly when he signed his contract of employment, if it was "hidden" in there), then he has the right to cancel this agreement at any time by giving the required notice (this should be specified in the opt-out)

doesn't really help though as it sounds like your DP's employer are just about staying within the WTD rules.....

with regards to the weekend working, I would feel a few weddings/christenings/family parties/etc coming up, where you will be away, which means he can't work all the weekends they want him to

What they are asking is unreasonable, but unfortunately not illegal....

[Eleusis]

Is you DP getting paid overtime for his extra hours? If so, why don't you use the extra money to get a mothers help or au pair in. That would lighten your load and give you a chance to do some of things you want to do.

Since he had trouble getting this job and he works contract, it might not be a wise move for his career or for your family's finances if he starts refusing the extra hours. You might want to think about the impact if they decide not to renew his contract because he isn't as available as some of the other candidates.

[bohemianbint]

Thanks for all the input. DP had appraisal the other day and did really well; his probation is now over. On the upside he needs to sign a new contract (its' basically the same though.) Think it's worth him clarifying the overtime stuff before he signs? He's not happy there and it's just a matter of him finding a new job and then he's gone.

[chocolatekimmy]

They will probably just say its "as necessitated by the needs of the business". I very much doubt they will be willing to specify anything. Thats why terms are often vague to cover themselves