Urgent advice needed re being fired vs quitting

[cartsmar]

I've namechanged and written this so it isn't identifying.

I'm being managed out at work. Various things have happened but the latest is that I'm at the end of an 'improvement plan'. I can not meet their targets, and whatever I do I won't improve so suspect I will be getting fired shortly. They want me out. I'm desperately looking for another job but no luck so far.

I'm looking advice on what to do. I don't want to get fired and have that affect any future chance of employment so I need to hand my notice in.

So:

1. Is there a reason not to ask for gardening leave? They have no reason to agree to it... But it would be in helpful in terms of finding a new job. However I need the money so if it was to be unpaid I would rather grit my teeth and serve my notice and get paid for it.
   
   
2. if I hand my notice in, if I don't get a new job immediately, any advice on what to say to potential employers about why I left? Is 'I handed my notice in so I could take on new projects immediately' ok? Stumped on this
   
   
3. References: my manager is in a similar position to me but has been lucky enough to get himself a new job. We get on well. He is leaving at the end of October. Should I not get a job until after he leaves, what do I do about a reference? Can I still give his name and personal contact details? Or do I need to give my employers details? I am very worried about a bad reference.
   
   Is there anything else I need to consider? I'm really worried about my career and of course finances.
   
   Thanks in advance

[ImperialBlether]

Are you a teacher, OP? It must be incredibly stressful for you.

[cartsmar]

No, not a teacher. Yes it is very stressful. I work in an office.

[nicename]

Poor you - what a shitty situation.

I'm assuming you don't want to go down the unfair dismissal route?

Would they make you redundant? The can't just fire you without warning (unless you punch your director or steal the safe). That at least gives you a heads up.

In the meantime, smile sweetly and play the game. Don't give them any excuses to screw you basically.

Brush off your CV, reach out for your contacts, join Linkedin/whatever, batton that hatches financially and make your exit plan.

Keep every review, job request/spec, email (put everything in writing) and memo.

If you get a job/contract in the meantime (ie if they start disciplinary) then you can request that it will be quicker and cleaner if they take that off the record. Your old/ex boss will be fine for a reference. I've had bosses from waaay back do them for me (many of the businesses I've worked for no longer exist - not due to me I may add).

Good luck, its only a job and no jow is worth this nonsense. Try not to take it personally - it is purely business.

[HermioneWeasley]

How long have you worked there?

[HermioneWeasley]

Also, what is your notice period if they dismiss you vs if you resign

[LLARGIES]

Hi op. Are you in sales? I can offer plenty of advice if you are. Also do you have a hr dept?

[cartsmar]

Thank you nicename.

I should have said that I have been there just under two years so I can't challenge for unfair dismissal - I think i would have a good case for that if I had been there for 2 years (for various reasons I won't elaborate on)

I don't think they want to make me redundant because they have someone else in mind for my job so will recruit to it again.... Again, having been there less than 2 years I wouldn't get redundancy pay anyway

[HermioneWeasley]

Thanks for the clarification - can you confirm re notice periods

When you say you're at the end of the process, what exactly do you mean? How many more weeks do you think it will take before they dismiss?

[cartsmar]

Notice period is one month either way.

Not in sales but thank you for your offer of help. HR are very supportive of senior management who are doing this and keen to be on their side and protect their own jobs.

[cartsmar]

Hermione - I don't know. They've already speeded up previous stages. I should get clarification of next steps within next couple of days but they have a habit of changing timelines, goalposts etc

[cartsmar]

Have an errand to run. Be back soon, thank you all so much for your help.

[LLARGIES]

I'd carry on looking and let them sack me. They have to pay you everything if they do and give you a months notice or whatever it is in your contract. Re reference you just give hr details they will just confirm the dates you worked there. You can say you resigned from your role as if wasn't for you when looking for a new role.

[HermioneWeasley]

I think being sacked vs resigning can impact benefits, so you might want to consider that.

Personally if try and broker a deal along the lines of 2 months pay, agreed reference wording, and you'll go now, go quietly and they'll save so much management time and energy. Are you owed any holidays? Do you get any significant benefits, like a car or big pension contributions?

[daisydee43]

hi yes thought this sounded like you worked in an office re references. i got fired 3 years ago in a job i hated and had no strength to fight for it as their demands were silly. it was a really stressful time for us so in 3 weeks (although i had been looking for 6 mths) i had a new job but wasnt choosy. i was never asked for references but i knew i wouldnt want them to be. as long as u have 2 references its fine. u can say anything for why you left really to make u sound good.

[nicename]

You will get redundancy pay. I assume you've a contract and passed the probationary?

Redundancy is a good route for them as it is cleaner and faster than disciplinary and any potential claims for unfair dismissal. Yes they can parachute someone else in to do the job but there will be a 'no comeback' clause in the redundancy agreement and the bod may well have a different title and slightly changed job spec. Very easily done.

Hermoine has a good plan.

How's the job market for wha you do/where you are? Leaving will affect any dole money if you are able to claim (but do check this with the CAB).

[daisydee43]

also i think they can refuse to give you a reference but not actually allowee to give a bad one - ring up before hand as i found one ex manager would have refused

[Framboisier]

Check the ACAS website for information about settlement agreements...depending on how far you are through the process, they may go for this vs. dismissal.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for a big payment (you know you are below the time limit for UD) but you may get PILON or garden leave instead of working your notice.

You may also be able to agree the reference - which you should aim to be a factual statement of dates worked/ position held rather than a character reference.

[maggiethemagpie]

I work in HR and have a situation at the moment where we have someone on performance management so possibly in a similar situation with yourself, and I have to say that the manager would absolutely love it if she resigned, or offered to resign in exchange for clean reference and notice pay, as it will save us a lot of time, effort and legal risk. So what I'm trying to say is, if you want to go and they want you to go this may be the best option. They have no obligation to pay you anything (except notice pay) so you're not exactly in the strongest bargaining position, but then again you do have something that they want - the choice to resign.

I'm sorry it does sound very stressful but in these situations if you think you've gone past the point of no return and the writing is on the wall, it's best just to get out with your head held high before they can upset you any more.

[cartsmar]

Thanks all.

Confidence has been diminishing throughout the process so not confident in any respect, least of all negotiating with these people.

[maggiethemagpie]

You need to work out exactly what you want to negotiate, what is your ideal position and what is the minimum you'd accept.

So you could ask for a conversation with your manager and say you are thinking about whether to resign at the moment as you don't want to go through a procedure, but as you don't have a job to go to you are concerned that your notice period would not be sufficient to tide you over until you find your next role, would it be possible to negotiate an exit which may be the best solution for everyone.

They can only say no and I don't think you're shooting yourself in the foot if you go for this approach and they say no.

Would you accept it if they said yes you can resign and be paid your notice/get reference but no more than your current notice period?

As that may be what they end up offering, but at least then you would not have to work your notice period and could start a new job straight away.

As for what to tell your next employer, there are loads of reasons you can come up with for why you've left without it pointing to the real reason . If you agree the reference from your old employer as part of your exit, you'll know exactly how you can stretch the truth and get away with it!

Good luck

[scandichick]

Someone mentioned bad references upthread: it's important to know that it's not illegal to give a bad reference as long as it's factually correct.

Some employers may also call the company directly, even if you give your old manager as a reference, so negotiating what they would say could definitely be worth it.

And don't forget that you can ask a professional-sounding friend to double-check that they're sticking to it...

[FunkyBoldRibena]

You will get redundancy pay. I assume you've a contract and passed the probationary?

No, if less than 2 years service, no redundancy pay AND the OP has said that redundancy is not on the cards.

You need to work out exactly what you want to negotiate, what is your ideal position and what is the minimum you'd accept.

Sorry, but this is just giving the OP high hopes of negotiating a settlement. Anyone can be dismissed for any reason within the first two years, there is no negotiation as there is no way that the OP could claim unfair dismissal in the first two years unless they can prove some discrimination for a protected characteristic. This is not a compromise agreement situation and very little room for manoeuvre.

Making up scenarios of redundancy payouts and negotiations is nonsensical.

OP - if they do dismiss you, then you will be paid your notice, and they may ask you to work it, but they often don't - esp if you have access to secure info. I'd get the contact details of your manager however, as your job will be on your CV, they might well ask for a reference from them anyway.

Is there any way that we can help with meeting those targets at all? So you don't get fired in the first place. What is the job and what is it you are required to do to keep your job?

[WiseGuysHighRise]

How much sick pay are you entitled to?

If they definitely want you out, do you have much to lose by "hinting" how much stress you are under? 3 months gardening leave will be quicker and cheaper for them than 6 months on full sick pay and taking you through occupational health etc.

I'm not actually recommending you do get signed off sick if you're not, but possibly the threat of it could work to your advantage.

Risky strategy though - I suppose it depends how hardfaced you can be and how much you think you stood to lose if it backfired.

[WiseGuysHighRise]

Also, it may help to consider why they want you out? This may help to see how amenable they'll be to deviating from the standard notice period.

If they think you're a liability and are "stealing a living" so to speak, then you'll probably get nothing. If it's to facilitate a restructure which will improve their bottom line then you may get something just to get you moved on quickly.

[maggiethemagpie]

Funky bold Ribena - I was not suggesting settlement agreement, you've missed my point.

I was suggesting that the OP could suggest she 'leaves quietly' if they pay her notice pay and agree a factual ref.

They may go for this, as otherwise they will have to spend valuable management time going through a performance management procedure which believe me no one likes doing if they don't have to, not the employee not the manager and not HR.

Although she has less than 2 years service clearly they are not going for the 'let's just dismiss you as you have no legal rights' approach, as they have had ample opportunity to do this thus far and have not done so.