ds struggles to recognise his numbers

[lorne]

Ds who will be 5 at the end Of August attends Nursery 5 mornings a week for 2.5 hours per session. Teacher had a word the other day saying that he is getting on fine but is struggling to recognise his numebrs. Seemingly they have to know 0 - 20 before end of term. His counting is fine it is just the recognising part he is struggling with. I must admit when I have been doing them at home he does seem to struggle. Has any one come across this with their children and did it take long to get them to recognsie. I personally think they expect alot from children at this age but it has me a bit worried now they have mentioned it. His memeory is normally very good so it puzzles me why he is strugglng with numbers as the alphabet etc was no bother to learn.

TIA

[Jimjams]

why on earth do they "have" to learn the numbers before the end of term. He's not even 5. That is crazy. It makes me so cross. If he realises that everyone is desperate for him to know his numbers he's quite likely to not bother- maybe they are putting too much pressure on him.

My son knew all his numbers at 2, but still can't speak, understand anything except nouns and set phrases, use a knife and fork, put his clothes on (although he can take them off), and so the list goes on. I don't think knowing numbers is very important.

If he learned his alphabet without any problems I would imagine he is unlikley to be dyslexic or anything, so he's probably just put up a bit of a block. Maybe he had a bad time to begin with and now doesn't want to try iyswim (ds1 is like this with everything). I would ask the nursery to leave his numbers completely for a month to 6 weeks and then try again very gently in a playing way then - or leave it completely- he's going to do numbers again in reception anyway.

[Ghosty]

Agree wholeheartedly with JimJams .... Why on earth do they put this pressure on children so young?
Although not entirely happy with the Kindergarten system in New Zealand, one of the things I love about it is that preschool learning is 'child led'. Basically DS learns whatever he fancies learning. If he goes into Kindy on a Monday and expresses an interest in frogs then the teachers will get out books for him, get him to draw pictures etc. In fact a whole term's work for him was based around the fact that he was interested in volcanoes ...
When I went into to the two local primary schools to have a look around I asked both Headteachers what they expect children to be able to do when they start school and I got the same answer:
"We expect them to do whatever they can do ... Some children start school able to read and some don't even know their colours, no two five year olds are the same."

[Jimjams]

ds1 is 5 btw. School know that he knows his numbers (or at least I think they do), but his IEP is full of things like learning where he is allowed and not allowed in school etc, they're not really bothered about the numbers iykwim.

I do think you need to tell the nursery to back off- otherwise he's going to end up very underconfident about them and unwilling to try for fear of failure. I'm getting cross about this on your (and your ds's) behalf!

[tigermoth]

Are you sure the nursery want him to recognise (read) numbers written down? right up to 18, 19, 20? And he's not even 5 years old? and he's only going there half days? that's ludicrous!

IME one of the informal targets set for children around this age is counting up to 20, so they can say the numbers aloud. That's different to reading them, though. My son will be 5 in August. He's at school full time and he certainly can't read numbers up to 20.

[lorne]

Thanks Jimjams and Ghosty for your replies. I too agree with what you say about there being too much pressure on children to learn all the various numbers, alphabet etc. I just wish she hadn't said anything to me. It is a lovely nursery and he does really enjoy it but I don't want him to be
under pressure. He is a very happy and confident boy at the moment so I certainly don't want them to take that away. Seemingly they are giving me a game to take home with numbers etc on it for him this week so we will see. I do lots of counting games etc like snakes and ladders etc which he likes anyway so I will see what game they give. As you know Jimjams I mentioned before that he was going into little dreams. We have seen a paedritician(excuse spelling!) and they think it is just him. Thye have also done an eeg which we got 3 weeks ago so we haven't got the results back so this is probably what is worrying me the most. Is it going to turn out to be epilepsy and this affects his memory etc. But then he remembers everything else. I think his memory is far better than my own sometimes! Anyway hopefully I will get the results soon and take it from there. Thanks again. I do appreciate your replies

[pepsi]

We too have had problems with our ds recognising numbers, although is is not 5 until next March, have had a lot of problems this week with problems about him being kept back in nursery for a year, anyway, he can recognise his numbers now because of Thomas the Tank Engine, we went through all the numbers of the engines and it caught his attention. We realised that at nursery he wouldnt recognise numbers but at home he could tell the difference between Edward and Gordon's tender....for those who dont know the are both the same shape and colour but one has a number 2 on the side and the other a number 4. We knew if he could see the difference he could do it so we used all the other engines up to 10 and hey presto. Weve had loads of problems about our ds not doing things, we are becoming a nation of paranoid Mums I think. My little boy certainly cant recognise or count up to 20 and its not something thats been mentioned to me.

[lorne]

Hi tigermoth, yes that is what they said to me. I too am surprised as I think that must be alot for children to learn but that is what she said. They said he can do it is sequence but then that is him just counting really but they say if they hold up say a 12 he doesn't know it! They have only been back 4 weeks since Easter so I feel there is plenty of time yet before end of term. His alphabet is great and also he loves road signs. He remembers them no bother. The nursery teacher said everyhthing else is fine but she feels there is a gap developing between my son and others! When I told my sister she was so annoyed as she said we didn't have anything etc like this when we were young. It is getting too much I think expecting them to learn so much before they even start school! But anyway I will see what happens. Thanks again for your reply

[toddlerbob]

Oh Ghosty, finding that out has made me so much happier. I have read a few education threads here recently and have been quietly shocked. I like the idea of learning about what you are interested in, that's what I do with ds. He loves making animal sounds so I take him to see animals, have books with animals, point out animal things in shops, sing animal songs etc.

[lorne]

Hi pepsi, thanks for your reply. I am sorry to hear about your son regarding the nursery wanting to keep him back. My friend is having the exact same with her ds at the moment. They have told her that they think he is the mosy immature etc in the class. As you can imagine she is really upset. She is insisting that they let him go into primary 1 and if he needs help he will get it there. Seemingly legally they can't force you not to let him go if that is what you want. I hope everything works out for you and your son. Back to recognising the numbers, my ds isn't really into Thomas but I have heard a few friends say that is how their children knew their numbers,
I have even let him now use the remote control on the tv so he is getting there. He just doesn't seem that interested. I feel there is too much pressure now on children. I woudl love him to do well in school etc but at the end of the day as long as he is happy and tries his best that is good enough for me. I will let you know what happens this week. It is a worry being a parent. Never mind we will keep strugging on. Take care.

[Ghosty]

Toddlerbob ... you are definitely in the right country then. In some ways I wish DS had a teeny bit more structure in his time at Kindy (that is the teacher in me coming out) but the way I see it is that he has years of school and timetables ahead of him ... why not let him be little for as long as possible and ENJOY the world around him?
Having said that - he is 'ready' for school ... or rather, I am ready for him to go to school
I didn't get taught to read until I was 6 - I was 2 years behind all my English classmates when I moved to England ... When I was 9 I had read all of the Chronicles of Narnia ...
I have got O levels, A levels and a degree ...

[tigermoth]

honestly, the nursery aims sound barmy to me. You say the nursery feel he should say 'twelve' when he sees '12'. That's quite advanced for a 4 year old I'd say. What do they feel about counting things out? I son will happily count twelve sweets if they are spread around so he knows what 12 is. But he wouldn't read '12' as '12'. Surely the counting out is more important and useful at this age than the reading?

[lorne]

Hi tigermoth, that is what they are saying. Is your son in school full time then or is he like my son? We call it nursery here in Scotland but it is in the school etc he will go to full time when he is 5. We will see what happens.

[tigermoth]

It sounds like your son is the equivalent of our reception year. He started in January and it's full time. He goes up to year 1 in September. At the moment the emphasis is still learning through play, as it was at his pre school. Next term he will start getting more academic style teaching. I can't wait

[twogorgeousboys]

Lorne

I'm not teaching at the moment, so maybe there's yet another completely unrealistic target been dumped on small children and their teachers by the government in my absence. It would not surprise me. IMO nursery and reception education have been hijacked to service government targets. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Anyway - back to your son.

He is not 5 until August, recognising all numerals 1-20 seems completely unrealistic to me for any 4 year old. Sure, some can do it, but not all of them by any means. A nursery teacher may be able to confirm this, but I just cant see this as being something children should have cracked at 4.

I think he'll do this when he's ready and he's probably busy learning lots of other interesting things at the moment.

[roisin]

Sounds a bit barmy to me too. It is far more important that children learn 'sound mathematical concepts' ... being able to count correctly, match up pairs of shapes, 'count on one more' or 'one less', identify bigger and smaller, taller and shorter, and better to focus on these concepts on numbers just up to 5, or maybe up to 10. Actually identifying the symbol used for the number is much less important anyway. And if you try too much (i.e. identifying numbers beyond 10) before they have a sound concept of maths, they are just going to get confused anyway.

[mumeeee]

I work in a nursery and we certainly dont expect children to recognise numbers up to twenty. we do some number recognition with them but most of the time we are doing matmetical concepts. Teching them big, small, heavy,light etc. This is all done by playing games and not sitting a child down and putting pressure on them. I would have a word with the nusery teacher and ask her why he is expexted to know his numbers by the end of term. Children are not expected to recognise numbers up to twenty by the time they go to school so dont worry about it also they dont need to know the alphabet by then either.