ADVICE on dealing with DISTURBED, DISRUPTIVE 9YO, please

[noonar]

in my year 5 class i have boy with some big emotional and behavioural difficulties. he comes from a very difficult family background ( mum with depression, psychotic episodes, domestic violent- and that's just the suff i know about).

anyway, i'd like some advice on how to deal with him, as he's quite disruptive in class. he constantly fiddles, throws things, makes noises, whistles, irritates other children and won't come when he's asked to eg leave room for time out, lining up on the playground. his 'dripping tap' behaviour is impacting on the class, as he is monopolising alot of time and attention in class and is really getting me down. i've tried...ignoring it, praising him, reward charts,talking to him, talking to dad. nothing works for more than an hour!

it's like he wants to challenge my authority all the time. eg i gently removed a ruler from his hand as he was waving it around in class- i didnt say anything as i didnt want to make a big display of it. but then as soon as i returned to the front of the class, he'd found another ruler to wave around- and stared at me as if to say 'what are you going to do about it?'

the thing i'd like advice with is to do with the fact that he's TOTALLY different with me 1:1. he often hangs around during break to chat or help me do job. he works really well for me, at times ,if i sit next to him and support him in class. he loves to do little jobs like fetch the bell and often tells me little things at the end of class eg about the arrival of his new kitten.

i'm just so confused about his 'jekylkl and hyde behaviour'. i don't mind spending time with him after class, as i thought it might help build a rapport and be nurturing for him. but i'm starting to think he thinks i'm being a soft touch! maybe i should stop trying to befriend him at play time...but he comes to me!

any insight/advice appreciated.

[Blandmum]

something that worked for an older, but very similar class that I taught....sounds mad, but it worked, a start chart!

He can get a maximum number of stars a day....when he gets an agreed number, a 'soft reward. A greater number a 'hard' reward like a fancy rubber etc

It sounds as if the boy is being a pain to get your attention, it may be that he only gets attention for negative behaviour at home.

Accentuate the positive, make it clear that he gets most of your time in class when he is being good, not being bad.

It is tough though, uou have my sympathy,

You can make the star chart a whole class afair if you like....each star is a 'ticket' in a lucky dip type of thing. Wored a dream for my 'difficult' class.

Good luck, and you have my sympathy!

[LaidbackinAsia]

Hi - does he get any help/support from any outside agencies apart from school ? Most areas have organisations for young carers and from what you say he would probably meet the criteria. This might give him a forum for talking to others in the same situation as him and they can also help with out of school activities etc.

His behaviour clearly seems to be sucking all of the energy in the classroom towards him and he is probably just really in need of special attention (which he gets from you 1-1 hence his apparent calmness). At 9 he might recognise this as an issue - have you asked him why he does it ?

[noonar]

thanks folks, following on from the negative attention and whole claass rewards ideas... we already have a class marble jar as a reward system. how about, if i give him 3 smiley face cards on his desk at the start of each lesson- if he plays up, i take a card away. at the end of the lesson, he can exchange any smiles he has left for marbles to go in class jar. that way, he can also please he peers with his good behavoir, instead of just annoying them.

what do you think?

[Blandmum]

I think that sounds like a very good idea. I also think that having more than one 'chance' wil be very good for this little boy.....the kids I worked with would 'flip' if thay lost their 'only' star....so I used to give them a maximum of 4....thay way if they played up they still had something to lose, so would continue to behave. take the only star and they thing, 'What the hell I may as well do what I like'.

With kids like this I have found one warning, then consequences, works. So 'Jack, if you do that again I will have to take your card. Jack, I'm sorry you misbehaved again I have to take your card'. make it clear to him that it is his behaviour that determines the outcome.

never let him win the stuff back by behaving for the last 5 minues of the lesson. That teaches him that consequences are not permanent, and that he can misbehave all lesson, behve for the last few minutes and get away with it.....not positive for you, or him.

[noonar]

thanks martian. i think the verbal warning is a good idea too. you are right; i think the problem with his current reward chart is that its too easy for him to conclude that he's blown it after the first telling off.

[clerkKent]

My father was a headteacher and he always preached 'automatic consequences': if you behave this way the consequence will be so and so. If you behave badly, you lose a star - no appeal, no backtracking, no alternative. Equally if you behave well, you can get a reward. It turned me into a very compliant soul.

[Bink]

Is he actually challenging your authority? - ie, is the behaviour truly wilful? The reason I ask is because he sounds like my 7yo ds, who is sadly something of a pill for teachers because he is exactly the same kind of dripping-tap disruptive. With my ds in the ruler-waving scenario, the second ruler would be in his hand & waving around without him having twigged he was doing that.

I'm not trying to excuse or minimise the behaviour, as I fully know how trying it is, but it may not be actually deliberately aggravating.

Will be back with more later.

[noonar]

Thanks bink, but it is def wilful as he stares me right in the eye and often resists me taking things out of his hands. he also used to do the same with last year's teacher. he would sit fiddling- hand down trousers was a favourite- then stare her out. he has this slightly demonic glint in his eye- too! i know not a very PC way to describe it!! i've met ids like your son, but there is a difference- trust me!

today, however, raging tooth ache reduced the poor boy to tears- showing him to be every bit as vulnerable as a little 5 year old. i couldnt believe it was the same boy. i never had a chance to test out my reward system, cos it just wasn't the right time.

[noonar]

kids, not ids.

[Blandmum]

oh dear, a willy fiddler. Not good at age 9.

Do you have any support for him?

Does he have any form of IEP.....sounds as if he should be on School Action at least.

[noonar]

he's new to the school- end of last term- and we have no proper senco at the moment, so things are a bit slow in that area. will push for something to done, though.

[galaxyone]

Noonar

My personal opinion (but also based on years of teaching children similar to the boy you describe)...........

Keep up the informal chat / breaktimes etc. He obviously likes you, brilliant! and is crying out for attention - give it to him!! Use these times as opportunities to bring up issues that are bothering you about his behaviour in class. (Obviously keep up plenty of the other chat too or he will just stay away!)Be honest. Tell him that you want him to learn and achieve. Tell him his good points. But explain to him how it makes it difficult for you to teach when he does things like the ruler waving etc. Ask him why he does it. How does he find the work? Keep letting him know that you are on his side and that he can always come and seek your help. This is not being a soft touch. Follow up problems discreetly (without an audience wherever possible) and let him know exactly what will / will not be acceptable.

I would avoid a reward system. He sounds like a very vulnerable little boy that just needs to know that you care about him and are going to support him in school. Reward systems, in my opinion, are too impersonal and gimmicky to have any lasting success. He's probably seen it all before. A real human relationship built on trust will last a year and beyond!

I'm glad he has a teacher as sympathetic as you. There's not enough to go around in my view.

[merlotmama]

I absolutely agree with you, galaxyone.
(Not keen on giving smiley faces on the assumption that some will be taken away....not really accentuating the positive, is it?!)
I do think it's great that this boy and you can build a relationship, noonar, which can only help with discipline. Over time, he'll reach the stage where it matters to him what you think of him.
Are you sure his behaviour is purely attention-seeking? There could be an element of ADHD in some of what you describe.

[noonar]

galaxy and merlot, thanks for your advice and helpful comments .

i take your point about reward systems, and agree that there are some philosophical objections to them . also, you are right in that the impact can quickly wear off. the reason why i thought this one might be different is that i know this little boy craves the acceptance of his peers. i think that this system will give him the opportunity to get their attention- but for all the right reasons.

i feel pretty sure that there isn't an ADHD element to his behaviour, as he seems very in control. i also feel that he's just reacting to his family situation. he gets so little nurturing at home- when we recently did a tasting session of freeze dried space food ( for our topic) he was the only child that really loved the taste of it. he came back at lunch time to finish it off, and it was pretty gross! it was probably the closest to a hot meal that he'd had in ages.

will try out your suggestions next week. i'm off till next week now, as i only work part time. tbh, he probably finds it tricky having two teachers.

[colditz]

he wants your attention. I'm not a teacher so discount my opinion if you want, but in his mind, he loves his mum, but face it, she's crap. You are calm, kind, authoritative and consistant. You are laying down rules in a life where there has probably never been any rules. Of course he adores you. you are the mother figure he hasn't really got. He wants your atention, he wants all of it.

When the other kids are around, he sees them as competition, so he plays up for attention, but when they are outside playing, he has you all to himself, and he gets a better class of attention from being good.

[Blandmum]

trouble is though, he can't have all your attention while the rest of the class is there....so the small, attainable goals of good behaviour to get your praise are the key.

You have to wean him off the 'bad behavior gets me attention' behaviour track to the 'good behaviour behaviour gets me attention' track.

Does your schoo have a nurture group?

This child looks like a prime candidate to me

[colditz]

Kidws like this tug my heartstrings. I want to cuddle them, feed them roast chicken, make them do their reading book and send them to bed at 8pm sharp -8:30 at weekends. I am sure most disturbed kids would respond so well to that sort of loving management.

[Blandmum]

and you are 100 % Right. throuble is tha we can't do this as teachers.

I've been trying to set up a secondary nurture group to fill this sort of gap with some of our kids

Bloody sad. they beed to be loved, and valued. you do what you can in the classroon, but there is such a gap in some of their sad little lives, there is a linmit to what you can do to fill the gap

[colditz]

Maybe an after school fostering scheme might work? I wouldn't even know where to start.... but basically, they go somewhere else after school, do their homework, have their tea, have some good quality adult attention - then go home?

Of course teachers can't do it, it's just not possible.

[PhantomCAM]

Oh being the mother of a 9 year old right now who is so the opposite of this poor little boy makes me feel really

Its all about being lucky isn't it, and this little boy is lucky to have you to care noonar, at least for a while.

Feel like crying now.

[Blandmum]

Nurture groups in primary are the key where small groups of kids interact with adults in a normal, respectful, warm way....ouside the normal school environment.

Google 'nurture groups' and you will see what I mean.

they can be so valuable, putting in what has been missing from some kids lives before it becomes a major issue.

mosr start with something as simeple as eating breakfast together. Some parents ar so fucked up they can't do this