Exclusions- permanent and fixed term.

[Martorana]

I have spent a very depressing day sitting as a governor on the panel that agrees permanent and fixed term exclusions from our secondary school. I just wondered if anyone had any questions I could try to answer about the process.

[WooWooOwl]

I'd like to know how bad things have to be before a student will be expelled.

I'm sure it will vary from school to school, but I'm always surprised to here, usually on mn, stories of violence where students have been allowed to stay at school.

[speckledpickledeggs]

Thank you. Yes, I have some questions.

1.How can a permanent exclusion be withdrawn by a Head Teacher but the child still remain permanently excluded from the school?

2.Must the Governing Body meet within 15 days to uphold a permanent exclusion or can they extend this timescale?

3.Would you expect records/notes to be taken by the Head and leadership team if they decided to permanently exclude a child?

4.Why would a school fail to record official and illegal exclusions on their registers?

[TalkinPeace]

what are your views on "internal exclusion"?

and how many of the exclusions you dealt with included compulsory transfer to a PRU?

[Martorana]

I thought I would have time to answer this evening but I haven't. I'll come back later.

[HolidayCriminal]

What percentage of kids will have at least one exclusion in their 5 years at secondary?

[Nerfmother]

Speckled , in answer to your first question the only situation I can think of would be a managed move being agreed before the governors hearing, and the head withdrawing the exclusion on that basis. So the child doesn't have it on record but effectively is not going back to their first school.
Mantorana - by agreeing I assume you mean reviewing?

[speckledpickledeggs]

Nerfmother - no, it wasn't a managed move and the exclusion was going to be challenged. A new school place wasn't available for weeks so the child was placed on the CME (Children Missing from Education) register. The child was disabled and had a statement and no education was provided in the interim.

[Nerfmother]

That's very different then, speckled. Sounds like something fell down somewhere.

[speckledpickledeggs]

Well let's just say it was very convenient for the school to remove a child from their register on the day they did. They even denied the date of removal and have claimed that it was done on another day and 'backdated' .
Can you even 'backdate' school registers?

[Nerfmother]

I don't know the answer to that. I thought that registers couldn't be changed, but may be wrong.

[speckledpickledeggs]

There were also well over a hundred 'illegal' exclusions not recorded correctly on the register but I'm sure that there must a logical reason for it

[HolidayCriminal]

Bad form to start thread & not answer any Qs (stamps feet, impatient smiley)

[Martorana]

Really sorry- it was a lovely day yesterday then the Voice was particularly good....

I'd like to know how bad things have to be before a student will be expelled.
It depends from school to school, obviously. At our school it has to be pretty bad- because we are in some ways the end of the line. And we try very hard to keep kids on track o wt least get some sort of qualification. We do a lot of internal exclusion, we have a unit called the PAC where kids can go to where they are supported to get as much education as they can without disrupting others.

1.How can a permanent exclusion be withdrawn by a Head Teacher but the child still remain permanently excluded from the school?

I don't think it can

2.Must the Governing Body meet within 15 days to uphold a permanent exclusion or can they extend this timescale?
It can extend- one of ours was extended in an attempt to get the parents to attend.

3.Would you expect records/notes to be taken by the Head and leadership team if they decided to permanently exclude a child?

Absolutely. Very detailed ones.

4.Why would a school fail to record official and illegal exclusions on their registers?

I don't know.

[Martorana]

what are your views on "internal exclusion"?

It works well in our school, because we have the space and have allocated resources to make it work. I think that it can sometimes be a way of dodging difficult issues.

and how many of the exclusions you dealt with included compulsory transfer to a PRU?

None personally.

What percentage of kids will have at least one exclusion in their 5 years at secondary?

No idea. I'm sure it will be somewhere on the DFES site.

There were also well over a hundred 'illegal' exclusions not recorded correctly on the register but I'm sure that there must a logical reason for it

in one school? Speckled, it sounds like you are talking about a particular school which is either doing things completely illegally or you have been I misinformed somehow- I presume you have been in touch with the LEA? Who do they say about it? I don't think I can say anything helpful, except that the situation as you are outlining it sounds completely wrong, and should be challenged. Certainly there shouldn't ever be a permanent exclusion without a meeting where the parents or their representative can put their view across.

[Martorana]

Martorana - by agreeing I assume you mean reviewing?

Yes of course. A slip of the fingers after a very depressing day.

[speckledpickledeggs]

Thanks very much Martorana, clearly our experience must be unusual.

1. This did happen.
   

2.Extension was considered but illegal removal from roll happened before any disciplinary meeting.

1. There were no records or notes taken whatsoever.When challenged the leadership team said that there is no law that says they have to take notes therefore they did not need to do so!
   

The school governors were challenged on this but said that as the exclusion was withdrawn they were not going to make any further comment. If we discussed it further with anyone we would be subject to legal action apparently. The LEA did nothing probably because some of their staff had been aware of it and helped school with the illegal removal from roll. The LEA say it is a matter for the school and the school say it is a matter for the LEA so what can you do?

[motown3000]

Martorana. At your School what sort of Incident would be a permanent Exclusion .? The reason I ask is because obviously a Fixed Term Exclusion at one School, could be a Permanent one at another School.

Would your School use a "Managed Move" rather than a permanent Exclusion and does a "Managed Move" not stay Permanently on a Pupils Disciplinary record ?

[WooWooOwl]

If children are internally excluded, does that mean they are also kept separately at lunch and break times, or are they allowed to join their friends at those times?

[Martorana]

At your School what sort of Incident would be a permanent Exclusion .? The reason I ask is because obviously a Fixed Term Exclusion at one School, could be a Permanent one at another School.

It's hard to say really- it's very unlikely that any one incident would result in a permanent exclusion. It's usually a culmination of several fixed term and internal exclusions with no sign of any improvement.

Would your School use a "Managed Move" rather than a permanent Exclusion and does a "Managed Move" not stay Permanently on a Pupils Disciplinary record ?

We would- and sometimes do- but our school is the end of the line for many kids- there really isn't anywhere else mainstream to go. Yes, an managed move does stay on their record.

if children are internally excluded, does that mean they are also kept separately at lunch and break times, or are they allowed to join their friends at those times?

Either- depending on why they've been excluded.

[TalkinPeace]

and how many of the exclusions you dealt with included compulsory transfer to a PRU?
None personally.

Which just goes to prove that your experience in one geographic area is not relevant to another

as I know that due to changes in the PRU rules round here, kids CANNOT be excluded from school completely before 17 without the school paying ALL the on costs
and if a catchment kid is excluded, their original school has to prove it was NOT for financial reasons or cough up

[Martorana]

"Which just goes to prove that your experience in one geographic area is not relevant to another"

Well done for proving wrong something I never claimed was true!

[Nennypops]

Speckled, it sounds like you really ought to get legal advice about what is going on at the school you're talking about, the whole thing stinks.

[Martorana]

I agree. What you are saying the school has done is wrong on so many levels. You need legal advice and quickly.