8 week old GF baby doesn't want to take a bottle

[melaniespeaking]

Any ideas?? At about 4 weeks dd took bottle of expressed milk at 10pm feed from husband. This lasted 3 days, then he was away for a week and a half, and I couldn't face expressing milk and then sitting feeding it to her, and I was also worried she wouldn't take it from me. When husbad came back he tried again and she took bottle for another 3/4 days, but then protested.

He treid for another 2 but she just wouldn't take it. So for the last 9 days i have been breast feeding dd at 10pm feed.

DH husband tried this morning agai at the 11am feed, when she is normally very hungry, but to no avail.

I am happy to b/feed, but would like the chance to go to bed a little earlier. Also Gina suggests a bottle of colled boiled water in pm and if she continues to wake in night to give her boiled water then, none of which I can do in present situation.

Hey pals out there, any one got any bright ideas, or dull, I'll except them all!!

[SoupDragon]

DS1 happily accepted a bottle whenever it was offered. DS2 accepted a bottle happily at 6 weeks and the refused until, erm, gone 9 months I think - when he'd been crawling for a while anyway!

Both had the same routine, both bf, same parents Never could work out where we went "wrong" with DS2.

Sorry! Just thought I'd let you know you're not alone.

[SoupDragon]

Um... me again! A few suggestions I meant to add:

Keep persevering.
Try warming the teats
Maybe give dh a used breastpad so DD thinks he's you? (may have the opposite effect though).
Make sure DDs held in a similar position to bf-ing.
Faster teat? Maybe it doesn't flow quick enough for her now - you said she was a quick feeder elsewhere.
Is it fresh expressed breast milk (EBM) or frozen? Neither of my 2 liked frozen milk for some reason. (Yes, I DID thaw it first!)

[mears]

Sorry to be totally unhelpful but my question would be "why?". I wouldn't specifically wake her for a 10pm feed. You might find she won't wake till much later and you could have gone to bed earlier and got a few hours sleep under your belt.
If she is feeding well don't interfere by introducing milk from a bottle at this stage because she will not get the same composton of milk she needs getting it directly from you. By giving it in a bottle you are dictating what she should have.
If you want to have her used to taking a teat do it during the day. Are you going back to work that you need to leave milk? I believe babies are put off teats by constantly being forced to take one. I went back to work exclusively B/F and all my babies took bottles when they had to.
If you are not going back to work why don't you leave it a little bit longer and introduce a cup.
As I have said before on other threads I think there is a danger of chasing a routine that may never happen for your baby. You will then get cross and blame the feeding or the baby rather than the book.
Aplogies again, it just sounds as though you are doing so well breastfeeding and not recognising it as normal.

[sjs]

Can imagine you could do with a break every now and again and bet your dh loves feeding your dd too.

My dd was happy to take one bottle a day from anyone and it didn't matter what the contents were (water, ebm, formula...), but would only take one type of bottle. (nuk) We tried for a while to get her onto avent bottles cos we had a cupboard full of those, but she wouldn't do it. We just had to go out and buy some more nuks. Would it be worth trying an alternative bottle?

You may already have tried it, but only other thing I can think of is that you keep out of dh way while he tries (if dd sees you she may be protesting cos she know that she can have the "real thing".) Otherwise, think what you are trying (ie getting her used to a bottle at other times) may be the best idea. Probably less stressful when it's not the middle of the night.

By the way, don't worry about the cooled water in the middle of the night. You may never need it. From other thread, I know your daughter is only about 8 weeks old and if she is only waking a couple of times in the night (which you mentioned she is) then you will probably find she sleeps through in the next month or so anyway.

If all else fails, don't panic just go with the flow! It may not be too much longer before you get a longer night's sleep anyway. FYI, we followed GF and my dd slept from 11 - 7 at around 14 weeks. And then 7 - 7 at about 19 weeks. (And some babies sleep through earlier than that!) And I breastfed at that 10pm feed 95% of the time because I liked it. If you hand over all other responsibilities other than the feed at 10pm it might hlep. I used to go to bed earlier and dh would wake up dd and only call me when she was ready (saving 20 mins or so it used to take her to wake up.) He'd then do the change in the middle of the feed, we'd dim the lights and I'd do the second half. (Which was lovely and relaxing.) He was also a master burper and great at settling her. So I'd be back in bed within the hour leaving him to finish off.
Good luck!

[melaniespeaking]

Thanks - lots of "breast" food for thought.

Think will try again with someone else in the afternoon feeding her. Will try warmed teat. Only have Avent, so will try other.

Also husband is really happy to help with 10pm feed so will hand over the bits I can to him.

Because she is a GF baby I feel i want to continue with 10pm feed.

Also I am projecting forward to things that don't matter yet, like having to give water in the night - I'm not doing that yet - so I must just go with the flow.

Will relax a lot more - this last week have gone into worrying overdrive. Perhaps at 8 weeks I feel everything should be getting back to normal, but as you have all said 8 weeks is early days.

Thanks once again team!!

[Demented]

Mears (saying this with great fear) but the bottle is a Gina Ford thing, I don't understand it either. (no offence intended to any GF fans).

[Demented]

Mears, meant to say you have confirmed what I have always thought about a bottle of expressed milk, obviously better than formula if you are away from your baby but no substitution for the real thing. It always concerns me when I leave DS2 with a bottle of EBM that because it is made up of two or three sessions of expressing there is alot of foremilk there and not very much hindmilk.

[mears]

The thing is demented, that milk is only for the times you are not there. Your baby gets plenty when you are there to B/F. It does not matter in the great scheme of things that your EBM may be predominantly foremilk. Mind you, you do not know for sure that is the case. If it is only drip milk that has been collected then that is probably foremilk. The other milk you express will be a combination. Although it looks watery - it is not necessarily just foremilk.
All of it is 'liquid gold'.

[mears]

Meant to say though that this is one of the reasons I can't fathom Gina about a bottle of EBM at 10pm. You are then dictating the constituency and amount of breastmilk a baby gets prior to bedtime which flies in the face of nature. If the babt does get more foremilk it is more likely to wake during the night. If you give formula you are threatening B/F.

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[mears]

Sorry Bloss - I am glad it suited you and your dh. If your baby settled with it then great. Unfortunately you might not have been blessed with a baby who did. Even though you expressed an hour before giving that EBM, your baby might have got more milk from you than you expressed ( or less). There is no greater pump than a baby. I certainly could not have been bothered with the hassle of expressing to then give the baby that feed in a bottle. Misses the point of the ease of breastfeeding IMO. My dh was very involved in settling, changing and feeding babes when I was not there so he felt totally involved.
I am so glad it worked for you. Where others' breastfeeding are on a sticky wicket it will be it's downfall.

[pupuce]

I am with Bloss on that one...I did the exact same thing with DS and did not do it with DD...so DH has very recently told me he wished he had been able to give DD a bottle when she was small... and believe me he did all the other things as he is a SAHD. He said he didn't feel the same bond with her as I was always the one feeding her !!!
Now melaniespeaking.... what about cup feeding her that EBM ? Have you tried that ? Presumably you are not in the room when your DH tries to bottle feed her ?

Mears :I know exactly where you are coming from with your question and if I hadn't used GF's book I am sure (really) that I would say exactly what you said.... but believe it or not, most GF babies are far better sleeper than most other babies.... I know you'll think I've lost my marbles but every time some mum writes on mumsnet about sleep difficulties for a baby above 4 or oven 6 months old it is usually someone who has never followed her advice (I do not mean routine but I do mean advice). There is a debate about how a baby should sleep.... and at what age... and if your baby sleeps through the night (meaning something like 2200 to 0700) before 6 months old.... the mother is given the impression that she deprived her baby of some bf quality time ! This sort of accusation usually comes from those who are still bf their babies through the night at a later age.... well that's the way things have worked out for them... don't (and I don't mean you personnally Mears here) assume that it wasn't what babies were able/happy to do. And BTW I have NEVER had to use CC let alone left my babies to cry....I can'tdo that, that's not me.
Both my kids slept through the night before they were 2 months old.... DS in particular gained 10 oz a week for months ! He was a happy camper ! DD slept through the night at 6 weeks and probably would have done so a week earlier as I use to wake her up at 4 AM to make sure she had an extra feed.... otherwise she was sleeping !

And DS wasn't as Bloss' DS....an easy baby to start with... this is WHY we tried GF!

[mears]

Hi Pupuce - I am really glad that GF worked for you and Bloss. I do believe that everyone should do what they feel is best for their babies. However - I get the feeling that there are mums tying themselves in knots over feeding and sleeping, worrying that naps at the wrong times will totally interfere with sleeping through the night. My first baby slept through the night at nine weeks despite having sleeps whenever he wanted them and sleeping in a room without blackout blinds. I never had difficulties with babies wakening during the night because if they did, they got a quick feed and went back to sleep. If they needed to come into bed, they did.
I can appreciate though that there are mums who are demented with lack of sleep. If GF can work for them then that is fantastic. Alarm bells ring for me though when mothers are worried that their 8 week old is not sleeping through the night. That is not abnormal and it is not something to get fixated on. My sister had babies who would not sleep and once she got to no.3 she decided to do whatever got her back to bed more quickly after trying all the advice with the first 2, regarding not giving feeds or trying cc. A feed was over and done with and a baby asleep in the cot quicker than it was to offer water and repeated stroking to get them back to sleep.
The point I think I am trying to make is, if GF works for you then that is fantastic. If it doesn't, it is not a sin to go with the flow and not have a rigid routine. You can still have a baby who will sleep despite not following GF.

[calcium]

Mears - I know breast is best but having a dd who as you probably know is not a good sleeper I am following the GF routine and do express in the morning although I give the EBM in a bottle with the early evening feed as well as the breast. If you have demanding babies you are tired and therefore do not produce as much milk as if you were on tip top form (well for me anyway) so by giving expressed milk as well I know she is getting a good feed. I also have introduced a formula bottle at the late evening feed and one at 11am and I have seen a remarkable difference in dd in a matter of days. She is now much more contented and sleeps better (last night we had a record from 7pm - 1.30am) and yes I let her sleep through the 10pm feed, nothing on earth was going to make me wake her I am affraid!

As far as the taking a bottle I have been blessed with a baby who will take anything (not boiled water though and I don't blame her) at any temp in a avent bottle but this is the only bottle I have tried. I am affraid I have several friends who introduced a bottle early on and then not for weeks resulting in a baby who would not take a bottle whatever it was. She had to give the baby to her mum, starve her in order to get her to drink something. This is an extreme case but all I can say is to agree with Soup Dragon and persevere.

I know not everyone agrees with GF and I think it can be adapted to suit you and your baby but it has certainly helped me. As far as giving a bottle goes there is nothing wrong with it. I was very nervous due to peer pressure and doing the right thing but am so glad I did as it makes both baby and mum contented, well in my case anyway!

Good Luck

[bells2]

Hi Pupuce, out of interest how do you know that "most Gina Ford babies are far better sleepers than other babies"?.

I know it doesn't mean anything but both of mine now sleep a good 12 hours a night (and did so from around 5-6 months) and I always slept in the bed with them and fed them whenever took their / my fancy. Not intending to be confrontational - honest!!.

[mears]

That's good news for you Calcium.

I think I get paranoid about the introduction of formula to breast fed babies because very often women tell me that they did not have enough milk to feed their babies then when you ask more, you find that formula was introduced to encourage sleeping therefore breastfeeds were less therefore milk disappeared. The good thing with GF is the encouragement of expressing in that respect.
I have learned from this site though that many mums have preserved their B/F by the introduction of formula. As long as the knowledge of how B/F works is there so that the mum does not inadvertently end up stopping B/F earlier than she wanted, then all to the good.
The danger can be that formula is introduced without correcting the underlying problem. For women who truly do not have enough milk then Domperidone can be prescribed/bought over the counter - increasing milk production.

The other problem with introducing formula is that it is linked with asthma and eczema etc. Lots of babies will be fine. Lots won't.
I personally was not going to take the risk. I did not let my baby out of sight in hospital incase he was slipped a formula feed without my knowledge - happened then ( 15 yrs ago) but not now.

None of my babies had formula. In the same way that those of you are protective of GF, I was the same about exclusive breast feeding. It is nothing to do with my training as a midwife. Seeing women failing to succeed though compounded my resolve not to introduce formula at all. To exclusively feed so many obstacles are put in your way though, and you have to know the subject inside out. Thankfully as I was a midwife, my colleagues did not interfere too much. They knew better

I am in no way criticising that you choose to introduce formula Calcium. I am glad you are haapier because that is the aim of the game.
I give advice to women trying to exclusively feed to let them know it can be done, and that exclusively fed babies do sleep.

Thankfully there are experts on mumsnet who have successfully combined breast/formula and had success with GF. That is the beauty of mumsnet. Hope everything continues to improve for you.

[melaniespeaking]

I feel as if I should explaina little more!!

This is not my first baby, but my third!! I think in all my postings so far I have sounded like a first time mum (nothing wrong with that), but my other boys are a little older 8 and 5, so dd is almost like starting from scratch, which is a lovely opportunity.

I saw the GF book, it was not around for my last two, read it and thought I would give it a go. It really works well for dd in the day and she is really quite mellow! Nightime we are working towards, I think I was being a bit keen wanting her to be sleeping as soon as possible, rather than when she is ready for it!

My other ds' didn't sleep until 4/5 months, when I did cc as I was going back to work.

I really like the book, it helps me with the others too, as I pretty much know when I will be around for them, and have a lot more time for them and myself as with the other babies I did seem to be constatnly feeding, or worrying they should be asleep or up etc - I am a worrier!!

My downfall lies that if I am not "eating my breakfast by 8am" or putting "my blue knickers on" (is that in the book?) I tend to get panicky, and as it said it would be good to give a bottle at 10pm I wanted to do this (also for many of the other reasons already discussed).

So reading the messages makes me realise it is okay to adapt the routine to dd, but I have to say i need to keep reminding myself of this, and would much rather eveything went exactly as it says in the book - so anytime I post a message I think I just need someone to say it is okay for you to do something different and still follow the basic routine.

I'm hoping there are lots of areas I will be able to help others, as so far this site has been a real bonus for me!!

If anyone actually gets to here on this rambly message I do have a question,
When people suggest a cup - what do you mean?

[pupuce]

Melaniespeaking... a cup could be the top of a bottle.... don't fill it more than half way to start with.
BTW my DD also refused the bottle at 4 months when I did need to introduce it because of work.... DH just persevered (at her hungriest time) and after 3 days she finally took it.

Bells - I know you don't mean offence... My personal experience is that all GF mums* have their babies sleep "through" the night at less than 12 weeks.... one can argue whether that's good or bad but I see that a lot of none GF mums who (on Mumsnet) talk about their baby didn't sleep/isn't sleeping through the night until quite "old" (6 months and above) are usually ones who have not followed her advice (for what ever reason - not judging here).... It's all PERSONAL experience and not from a scientific study. So please don't take it too seriously.
See to me Bells - you are perfect at your style because you enjoy what and how you do it...but co-sleeping is not for everyone and neither is GF. And I know that your DD was still night feeding when you went back to work.... which is commendable as most of us (i.e. me!) need - preferably - uninterrupted sleep when I am at work, my office days are over 12 hours sometime .... Hence the change in career

• GF mum IME is one who does the routine quite strictly.... not one day in a routine and the next can't be bothered.... BTW once the routine is properly established you can easily deviate BUT THAT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T REALISE (some become neurotic with those routines).... she does say so in her book and I did it twice without any "negative" effect.

[calcium]

mears - no problem. I am still working at gettibg a happy medium and as a first time mum have no previous experience which you obviously do. anyhow dd is becoming so much happier so there must be something in it. as far as the ecsma/asma thing we have no history on either side so i suppose i am chancing it abit on that one.

[lilly72]

OOOhh! What a subject! I breast fed my daughter for 7 months and introduced a bottle of formula at 6 months with the help of a friend and a disposable bottle (apparently softer teats!) She took the bottle almost immediatly and consequently started sleeping longer through the night. I have also read Ginas book and found it really useful when I needed a little back up on certain situations, ultimately I believe all Mums need to do whatever it takes for the first few weeks to get some sleep and sanity back!

The first time my daughter took the bottle I was at the hairdressers having a much needed haircut and therefore was not around for her feed, my friend who was babysitting tried the bottle and my daughter took 6ozs....I swear by the bottles..disposable and very soft.

[jessb]

Fantastic, reading all your comments i've just realised i'm a GF neurotic and should burn the book. DS is now 12 weeks, has followed the routine from nearly the startand refuses to have a 2.25 hour lunchtime sleep, take a bottle, sleep through the night etc...and i am in severe danger of missing out enjoying him while i rush home for his 12 o'clock nap in pitch black. Of course when he laughs his head off I think the book is the bees knees, when he screams all the way through a nap and refuses to fed at set time I think it's a disaster. I will try and stop being angry that he can't tell the time yet and admit i just don't have a contented baby who just sits and smiles but i do have a beautifully spirited active one well actually a normal baby thanks mears. Don't you think the GF devotees are self selecting the people it doesn't work for (like me) give up (as i plan to do from right now)

[Eulalia]

Babies don't need water - my dd just had her first drink of water recently because she is now taking solid food. She is 6.5 months.

Don't know anything about GF - hate routines ... Just let my baby do her own thing

[ScummyMummy]

Melaniespeaking- I do agree with sjs- lots of my friends found that their bubbas would only take a particular type of bottle- maybe it's worth experimenting?

Really, really trying to give GF threads a rest BUT... Do have to agree with Bells- how do you know, Pupuce?! My boys were both sleeping a 12 hour stretch by 11 weeks and before that would regularly do a 6-7 hour sleeps without the influence of Gina. It wasn't what I expected or intended- I actually missed them waking the first time they slept through! We have had minor shennanigans since (mostly caused, I think, by the two of them egging each other on and getting wildly excited- horrible time at 7 m.o. when they became immensely sociable and would grin, chatter and winge at each other and me for HOURS! Also a nightmare when they first enjoyed the freedom of a bed...)but generally it seems like they've learned to like sleeping all on their own and would fall back into that pattern fairly easily. This doesn't seem so different from some of the GF baby sleeping profiles I read about on here?

BTW- update on bedwetting/partner's head exploding, Twin 1 seems to have responded to just ONE night of me waking up properly changing his bed and popping him back in it- no wet beds or night waking since!

[Bozza]

Sounds like quite a relief Scummymummy. Its nice when the things you have built up as potential issues are resolved so simply. Or am I speaking/writing too soon?

[honeybunny]

ds2 is now nearly 7mo and still refuses to take anything out of a bottle/beaker. He just chews it. I've tried all sorts. ds1 much preferred bottle to boob! Getting to the point where I wish ds2 would get on with it, as tier feeding at lunchtime is just not happening. (Spot yet another GF mum!)