Baby not feeding much during the day ... but every 2 hours at night

[bumbleweed]

Hi could any one advise please, as finding it really difficult to sustain 2 hourly b-feeding at night with a 5 month old, I thought it was just a growth spurt but its been 2 weeks now. If she needs the milk obviously I want her to have it ... but I am really tired.

I think the problem may be that she is too distracted to feed properly during the day - she feeds for really short periods of time now during the day, and is very restless - thrashing around and tugging on nipple etc

Do I need to be expressing during the day to keep my supply up - I have read this on other threads I think?

[foundintranslation]

No need to express tbh. It's actually night feeding that is particularly good at sustaining supply.
I'm afraid I can't comfort you on the night feeding as ds is 10mo and still feeds pretty frequently at night (but he does have at least one 4-5 hour stretch of sleep). As far as the day feeding goes, you need to create a quiet atmosphere, maybe even feeding in a darkened room. How often does she feed in the day?

[bumbleweed]

thanks for posting, she feeds every 2.5 hours approx in the day but only for about 5 mins then seems to lose interest or start messing around alot

she is still gaining weight btw, bu HV is suggesting introduce solids but I want to wait till 26 weeks

she only used to feed 2 times a night - now its 4

[koolkat]

bumble - do you or baby show any signs of thrush ? The tugging and thrashing about suggest some kind of discomfort - teething even ? Some babies teeth very early.

We got thrush when DS was around 3.5 months old and he practically refused to feed for a whole week, but fed well during the night, I guess because in the middle of the night he was too sleepy to feel any discomfort. I resorted to expressinga and syringe feeding until the thrush got better.

By the way, not all babies shows symptoms of thrush (i.e. white patches in the mouth). DS had no symptoms at all, but I had very bad shooting pains in my breasts which is why I realised we had it.

Just suggestions !

You might want to check symptoms of fussy babies on kellymom.com - this is where I got all my clues on what was wrong.

good luck

[alfiesmum]

Hi bumbleweed, I have exactly the same problem. Ds is 5 months, feeds very little in the day (to busy looking around and smiling!) and is up every 2 hours ay night to bf.
I tried to offer more frequent feeds durung the day but he wasn't interested. His weightgain is ok, although he has dropped slightly in the last few weeks. My health visitor is also telling me to introduce solids but I wanted to try and get to 26 weeks aswell.
I am very tempted to give him a bottle of formula for his last feed to see if that helps him sleep through. Does anyone know if this would help?

Sorry I can't offer any advise, but wanted you to know you are not alone

[bumbleweed]

hi koolkat I did wonder about thrush but cant see any white in dd's mouth. I haven't had shooting pains but 2 days ago boobs felt a bit sore and I kin of massaged all the milk out in case of blocked ducts - seems better now.

she is teething - has been for a month and has 2 bottom teeth - could this be the prob do you think? will look on the kellymom site - I found the stuff on refusing to feed but will look for the fussing bit stuff again

thanks for the help

[bumbleweed]

hi alfiesmum - we are in the same boat - the tiredness sucks doesnt it?? I am not glad you are going through same but I am glad to hear from you!

As for formula, it seems a shame after you have got so far excl bfing! It may not even get ds to sleep through he might wake wanting the comfort of you feeding him. I wonder if this is part of it with dd, or maybe part habit?

hopefully we will both get some suggestions here

[kiskidee]

a quiet darkened room as someone else suggested helps my dd feed for longer. teething, learning lots of new skills makes them wake up more during the night. My dd is just short of a year and I remember this well as i was also back at work full time to boot. Co-sleeping I found is an art that you get better at doing and it has been partly our solution. I find now that I am better rested co-sleeping than getting up 2x per night eventhough she went straight back to sleep with a feed and I would only be awake for 15 mins. It may not be your answer but thought I would share mine.

[bumbleweed]

kiskidee thanks for replying, it is really good to hear about real experiences, it somehow hits home more effectively than just reading a factsheet or a book - I have thought alot about co-sleeping but I dont think its for me.
What I have read on kellymom site also repeats what you say about feeding somewhere dark and quiet - I guess I will need to curtail my outings to groups and meeting up with friends quite a bit to do that - which is a downside but I suppose I need to weigh that against sleeping more at night.
Do you mind me asking if your dd still feeds 2x per night?

[kiskidee]

yes she still feeds 2x per night. I have not discouraged it as i work ft and express milk for nursery. I figure if she feeds at night, i have to express less.

[bumbleweed]

Do you express after work on an evening for the next day?
I wondered about just trying to settle dd without feeding her, but I cant bear to hear her cry even in my arms, especially in the night so it just seems as if we'll all get more sleep if I just feed her if she doesnt settle after a minute or so. Loads of people (including HV) have been saying things like 'at that age they dont need feeding at night - you are encouraging bad habits' - which I know isnt true, but it niggles at me a little.

[koolkat]

bumble - yes teething could defo. be a reason for baby being fussy. Here is the link for fussy babies have a look at\link{http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/baby/fussy-while-nursing.html\this}

alfie - I don't think formula helps a baby sleep better. I don't have experience with formula, but did wonder about it helping babies sleep better, but I did some reserach on it (LLL, kellymom.com, etc) and the bf experts say it is not supported by any sceintific evidence that formula fed babies sleep longer.

I know how hard it is with lack of sleep, I suffered from it too for a very long time, but honestly it is worth persisting with bf for 1st 6 months. I became convinced that formula/solids DO NOT help a baby sleep better, I never gave them a try. People may give you anecdotal stories of how it helped their babies sleep better, but it is not supported by anything scientific.

Be reassurred that it is just a passing phase. DS is now 21 months old (still bf) and I can't even remember the dark old days of lack of sleep

Plus you both only have a few more weeks to go before you can give solids, why waste time with formula now ? If anything excl. bf babies often react badly to formula, their tummies aren't used to it, they get stomach upsets, constipation, etc, which will only result in more discomfort to you and the baby and possibly even more sleepless nights.

Sorry, not trying to be pushy, but please weigh the postive things about excl. bf for 1st 6 months with the potential negative things of intro. solids too soon or formula, incl. the risk of allergies.

Best of luck to both of you !

[koolkat]

bumble - forgot to add that a very forceful let down or a slow let down can also make a baby fussy. I had this with DS too, the milk just gushed out and he would let go of the breast and than latch back on agian, there are ways to help baby with this, kellymom.com explain how on the page I have just linked.

[kiskidee]

i express during the day at work. i think that once babies get into the pattern of waking up at a certain time, their internal bodyclock makes them wake up regularly at that time but things change overtime as they mature. My dd wakes up at 10.30 and 3.30 most nights.

bumble: my dd has just moved into a new room at nursery (monday) and I think it has unsettled her night time sleep. she woke up every hour last night till 11 pm when I took her to bed. not teething. just the stress of her new environment - and I mean stress in a healthy way really.

you are right, go with your instincts as far as holding your baby. my dd is a v. confident baby - comments by her carers - holding her alot and sleeping with her has not harmed her a jot.

Co-sleeping wasn't initially for me or dh at first. We still only partially co-sleep. Dh really doesn't mind now. at first I only would sleep with her for a couple hours early in the night time then return her to her cot. Now I bring her to bed when I can't be a*rsed to get up. (truly, I send dh to get her) if after a couple hrs she is too wiggly, or settles into a good sleep, I take her back to her cot.

[alfiesmum]

Koolkat - im glad you say that giving formula wont help him sleep through, I have just been to mothercare to look at the bottles etc but just couldn't bring myself to buy any!
During the day nothing seems as bad, its when they are screaming through the night to be fed that I wish I had the formula

[jmum6]

I know i'll probably get shouted at but we had similiar prob when ds was younger and i have to say the top up formula feed at 11pm changed my life.
If I'd known just how much difference it would have made i'dve done it sooner.

He was a much happier and more contented baby.

[koolkat]

jmum6 - no one here will shout at you !!

But I do feel that mothers need to be aware that formula is not the answer to a good sleep pattern. Nor are solids.

My DS was a very poor sleeper until he was about 9 - 10 months old. I never gave him any formula, but started solids at 6 months old.

So despite the fact that he had been on solids for 3 months, he still was not sleeping through the night. All of a sudden though at around 9 months he started to sleep longer and longer - at first only woke up 2x, then 1x, then not at all from 8pm to 6 am. I thought it was a miracle !!

I agree with kiskidee - babies do sometimes wake up out of habit, not because they are hungry or upset, or anything really. As their systems mature, they sleep longer and longer.

This all sounds a bit "so what" to someone who is sleep-deprived (believe me been there, got the t-shirt, etc) so I totally understand if you think I am nuts !!

But even mothers of formula fed babies are sleep deprived - I know quite a few !

[bumbleweed]

koolkat thanks for posting that link - sometimes I start looking for some specific info on that site and get sidetracked by something fascinating! I will read now - I think my let down on my left side used to be stronger - and therefore she doesnt like that side much and does this head-turning, bobbing on and off thing - but recently havent seen much milk spurting out or spilling out of mouth.

also thank you to koolkat and kiskidee for your lovely and thoughtful posts - you have given me some reassurance that the night-waking is fairly normal for a bf baby.

jmum6, thanks for your suggestion, and not shouting you down by any means at all - whatever worked for you and saved your sanity was I'm sure for the best in your situation - but for me personally, formula is a big no-no. Probably because I had to give it in the first few days because I couldnt bf properly, and through sheer determination I kept going and have now achieved 5 months, and still feel a bit cross that I wasnt given the right type of help and support in those early days and weeks.

I know so many bf mums who give the night-time formula feed and they commonly say 'I just couldnt fill dd/ds - he/she needed extra, I wasnt producing enough milk'. That always seems odd to me that if bf is natures way of feeding that so many people couldn't surely have a shortfall in their milk? If what they meant by this was really that the night-time feeds were a killer - then I am there going through that same problem - but I just want to find a different solution.

Hope that makes any sense?

[jmum6]

Yep it makes sense. Don't really know what else to suggest other than what hv and posts have already said.
Hope things start to improve soon.

[purplemonkeydishwasher]

bumbleweed - we should start a 'no-sleep' club!
We've been going through this for a while now with my DS. He's 6 months now and it has started to improve. (well, it was starting to improve, then I gave him solids...)

as for this: "Loads of people (including HV) have been saying things like 'at that age they dont need feeding at night - you are encouraging bad habits' - which I know isnt true, but it niggles at me a little." I COMPLETELY relate!

I had a lovely little rant just yesterday about my HV making me feel bad about our sleeping/feeding arrangements. Why on earth is nursing at night a bad habit? and a bad habit for who? FOr me? Yeah, cause I'm tired but I can deal. FOr LO? Well, as far as I'm concerned if he's eating during the night it's cause he's hungry. If I have to choose between a full night sleep and a happy healthy baby? I'll choose the happy healthy baby every day of the week and twice on sunday.

Rant over.

[kiskidee]

thinking out loud here: when I was in the depths of sleep deprivation, I would go to sleep at 7pm after I put dd to bed then would sleep for an hour or 2 then get up and do my 'evening things' for a couple hours including feeding her and go to bed about 11 pm.

or sometimes, go to bed at 9pm, feed her at 10.30 then go back to bed.

both methods made me claw back some sleep. it's all part of the theory of 'sleep when your baby sleeps'.

[bumbleweed]

purplemonkey - you sound like me ranting away like that, except I do it to convince myself!

I feel like you, I think, about giving the baby whats best, even if it means I am sleep deprived - I just find it really really difficult some nights and the despair makes me doubt and wonder if there is a way of getting her to feed more during the day, and need less at night.

The ambivalence between listening to what health professionals, friends and relatives say, and trusting own instincts and really sensible stuff I have read on here is my NIGGLE!

How's the solids going for your ds then - apart from the increased waking?

[purplemonkeydishwasher]

bumbleweed - it's a slow process with the solids. But i'm trying (haha) not to stress about it. We're doing partial baby-led weaning so it's an exciting adventure in multicoloured food splatters! BUt it has interupted his sleep. I think. Or else it's teething. Who knows. I didn't get my instruction manual for DS so I'm winging it.

It took a few weeks for DS to settle enough to eat during the day but he got there. He still gets distracted if we're out or the dog walks by or I move but mostly it has improved.

She may be tugging at your nipple to get your letdown started as well. DS likes to punch me in the boob to get it going. Babies are such fun!

I guess the thing that has helped the most is having him in bed with me. That way I can (and do, often) fall asleep feeding him. I spend most of the night with my boob hanging out for this reason!

HTH

[bumbleweed]

DD's day-time feeding is getting worse

For the last 3 nights, even her bed-time feed has been a struggle (which used to be our lovely time together and longest feed) - she is now physically pushing the breast away, or herself away from it, and trying to sit up or wriggle away - its quite upsetting as it feels like a real rejection. This is in a darkened room with nothing to distract her. I think I have a fast initial let down then it slows considerably - because she is used to fast flow she cant be bothered to put the effort in after that.

I'm pretty sure its not thrush now - as no external signs in her mouth or on my nipples, and no shooting pains for me. I'm following the advice on the kellymom site - ie offer breast frequently, lots of cuddles and skin-to-skin. Feed in a quiet darkened room I have managed to do only some of the time, as have had to go out a fair bit over weekend - ie today attend christening 2 hours drive away, so got fed in pub and car (I know this is not helping ...)! But when do manage to feed somewhere quiet same thing - pushing away, sitting up, head turning, rubbing eyes instead of sucking, hands flailing and bashing self on head - all as though really uncomfortable.

Sorry rambling alot - but am getting to the bit I want some advice on .... should I go to doctor to check in case I am wrong and is thrush, or in case ear infection or other physical pain?? Or should I just keep changing sides frequently so she gets the fast let down milk, or will this mean she gets only foremilk and not enough calories??

Many thanks if anyone is reading this.

[kiskidee]

teething? try giving some baby neurofen or calpol 15 mins before a feed to see if it makes a difference. don't worry about the foremilk thing. dd never feeds for more than 4 mins at a go even at that age and would almost never take the second boob. because she fed often, there wasn't much foremilk. (by pumping i've seen that if you pump within an hr, almost no foremilk, if no feed or pump for 3 or more, loads of foremilk. also read somewhere on kellymom I think that foremilk is the fattier parts of the milk 'settling' out of the boob.)

[bumbleweed]

okay I will stop worrying about the foremilk thing - I'm prob still hung up on the (some of dodgy) advice I got in first month or so, about feeding one side only to make sure she got hindmilk.

guess I could try calpol tomorrow, as she is def teething - but if teething takes months, then I wouldnt want to give all the time - maybe just on a bad day?

thanks kiskidee