ds(4..10) in trouble at school - how can they be angry with him?!

[cariboo]

Many of you may have read of my (our, although dh is less involved, I think) on-going problems with ds' behavior. Briefly, he has trouble controlling his temper, is constantly seeking attention but, when one-on-one, is absolute bliss. We've consulted our paed who referred us to psychologists, psychiatrists & even A&E, we've cut out chocolate, sugar & E-numbers from his diet, begged him to behave, threatened him, bribed him but always, always assured him that, no matter what, we will love him unconditionally.

As I write this (propped up with a drinky-poo or two), I feel at an all time low. Ds was sent to the headmistress again today - the only form of punishment his school has found effective - & I'm so, so sad & disheartened. Coincidentally, ds was sent to the head this morning & had an appointment with his paedopsy this afternoon - it took us 2 hours to get there because of the rotten, cursèd football. I burst into tears - not my style but I feel absolutely overwhelmed. Summer hols start in 10 days & I don't know how I'll cope. Ds & dd(8 on Monday) fight over every single thing. I'll say "Wash your hands, please" & they'll end up shoving & screaming at each other as to who goes first.

I realise no-one will have a solution but I need to vent. All you mums out there, please give me some support because I feel alone & frustrated, frightened & above all, guilty. After all, if something's wrong with ds, who's only 4 fgs, it must be my fault! 4 yr olds aren't evil or scheming - they're barely beyong babyhood! My heart aches for my son. Please help me to feel better!

[micci25]

my four year old dd can be quite evil at times actually although dont think she is ever in trouble at nursery but have been told by a girl in her dance class 'are you x's mum, she is very naughty you know!'

whatever your son is going through is not your fault. tis just one of those things that cant be helped. does occupying them something help? maybe a few trips to the park when you get overwhelmed?

[cariboo]

On MN, I'm usually having a laugh or taking the mick out of people or moralising about suicide or somthing. I like to represent the strong, resiliant cariboo. Now I'm the pissed (slightly ott) & down cariboo, insecure as hell.

[chocciedooby]

Sorry I dont really have any advice for you cariboo but just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.My DS (4.6) sounds just the same as yours.We have tried everything and he just keeps on pushing the barriers.We have more bad days than good ones at the moment.He has also been in trouble at school. However he is not the only one.
From what other mums have said, this age can be a very difficult one and I reckon we are just going to have to get through it as best as we can.
More wine eh cariboo.
Sorry no better advice.

[MsDemeanor]

What did the professionals say about your little boy?
What do you think? Do you think there might be something amiss in him? Are there any specific times or specific triggers that precede the outbursts? It might be worth keeping a diary. For example, we found that our little boy was constantly in trouble just before lunch, and it turns out he cannot cope with feelings of hunger. Regular snacks have completely changed him. Sometimes it's the left-field stuff that is hard to pin down.
There must be a trigger, it just needs to be uncovered. And it's not your fault.

[cory]

Of course he is not evil, and of course you haven't taught him that!

Either he is quite simply a slow developer, who is a bit overwhelmed with the demands placed on him by a school situation, in which case things will improve as he matures. Or he has a more lasting problem, such as AS/AHDH, in which case things need to be done to help him. Keep pushing for referrals, make sure if the school is asked for an opinion that they don't sugar things over- trying to be nice about him isn't going to help him get support.

Keep a diary as MsDemeanour says; there may be some sort of pattern.

What do the psychologists etc actually say? Has anyone put their finger on a problem at all?

Also, how easy do you find it to work with the school? When I first read your title, I thought it sounded as if you didn't agree with them, but your post suggests that you do. Do you have regular meetings with this teacher?

[Kewcumber]

I feel I may have this ahead DS is delightful but also at 2.6 has problmes controlling his temper.

My DS needs masses of exercise to keep him sane - perhaps yours is the same? Thankfully I currently only have the one so its much easier to manage his temper.

[Kewcumber]

and also to be fair to him if he and your DD are squabbling I would say its as much if not more to do with her as, at 8, she ought to be able to not compete with a four year old.

[Hassled]

There is vey little you can do except ride it out - be consistent, pick your battles carefully but be absolutely clear that there are boundaries that can't be crossed, and keep showing him he is loved. He's not evil and it's nothing to do with your parenting. And remember that while he's like this at 4, he won't necessarily be like this at 6.

I know I'm like a broken record but the pocket money/Carrot-stick approach has worked with all of mine: £1/50p a week or so pocket money with deductions of 10p or 20p per misdemeanour. He's probably a bit young to really care about money but if he does, and understands that it's his to spend on what he wants, that might be worth a try.

You have all my sympathy re the fighting siblings - my oldest 2 have fought since day 1, and are now nearly 21 and 19 and still scrap over ownersip of the hand-control etc., bicker endlessly - it's relentless and exhausting.

[MrsPuddleduck]

So sorry Cariboo. I know how you feel.

My DS (4.9) is at the school nursery and ended up in the headmasters office on week 2 (back in September).

I think schools are harder on them as they have a different sort of mentality to nurseries. They expect compliance at all costs - it has taken 9 months for my DS to comply - and even now it is not all of the time.

I found the best answer was to avoid the teacher as much as possible and keep your head down when you collect so you don't have to listen to petty comments like "DS was saying silly words today at lunchtime" - he's 4, he's a boy and he likes saying poo - get over it!

I haven't read your previous threads - could it be frustration? Teacher has finally acknowledged that Ds behaves the way he does as he is more 'advanced' than some of the other children so gets bored and frustrated and hits out. Just a thought.

[Doodle2U]

Split them up a bit. Using the example in the OP - DD - wash your hands....when she comes down stairs, send DS up.

RE: Holidays. Make for the great outdoors - children are much easier when outside. Dunno why, they just are. Have a plan for each day - at least one thing to do out of the house, even for just an hour.

[cariboo]

Thank you for all the advice & sympathy. Here's a real shocker though - I spoke to ds' teacher today & she told me that ds had not been sent to the headmistress yesterday! He lied to me! And lied to get into trouble, not out of trouble. Am stunned. Why would he do this? Attention-seeking? But why deliberately seek negative attention? I did ask him why; I said I wasn't cross, just bewildered. He couldn't, or wouldn't, tell me. He seemed a little sad.

[MrsPuddleduck]

I think it is far too easy for people to label children as "the naughty one" and children aren't daft - they pick up on these things.

I would be actively encouraging him when he's good and telling him what a good boy he is at every oportunity to try and reverse this.

DS1 loves to think he's being a good boy and helping me. I find if he's being particularly awkward I can get him to help me to a job - not only does it take his mind off things but it also gives me an opportunity to give him some positive praise and completely turn the situation around.

[cory]

I wouldn't be too shocked about him lying to make his schoolday more sensational. My MIL still blushes at the memory of how she stormed into school to complain about her son being taught wrestling.

[desperatehousewifetoo]

I'm sorry that you are feeling low cariboo. Perhaps you could ask the school to look more closely into when he kicks off there. Is it when he is feeling out of his depth either socialy or maybe that he doesn't know what he has to do in class? Maybe he feels safer in the heads room because he knows where he stands with him/her.

I'm probably way off base, but just a thought.

[adelicatequestion]

Oh Cariboo -I went through exactly the same as you with one of my DT.

He would poke people on the carpet, hit, wave his coat sleeves in peoples faces etc etc. I felt like I was in with his teacher every day.

One day I asked him " If you could change anything about school what would it be?"

He said he wanted to be in the same class as his DT! It hadn;t even occurred to me that this was the cause of his behaviour.

But asking that question gave me the source of his problems. It may or may not work for you.

We also did the stickers but he never really like stickers. I decided to completely never mention or comment on anything he did wrong but made sure i was very excited about everything he did right.

Anyway he is now 7 and is behaving beautifully at school. He struggles sometimes with friendships but on the whole he is lovely, polite, well behaved and the teachers love him now.

There is hope, just be fair and really hype up the good things. We also instigated mummy time, where every weekend he would get to go and do an activity that he chose that was just me and him. (His brother got this time too).

But PLease please don;t think it is you. Schools (especially ours) pull you in for trivial normal boyish behaviour.

[cariboo]

It just goes on and on and on. Dh went to the school yesterday to talk about dd's teacher next year, nothing serious, but ds' teacher cornered him & banged on about ds' anti-social behavior, what are we doing about it, when is someone coming to observe him in a group situation (ie classroom), when is the psych going to file her report (psych told us ds not mentally ill - no adhd, bipolar depression, etc) but the school wants a written report, blah, blah, blah...

I'm so sick of it. Thank God school is over in just over a week. Not that it's going to be a picnic for me with dd & ds quarelling & complaining all summer but at least I won't have the school on my back for awhile.

[bellavita]

cariboo - have you spoken to the Head about a Behaviour Support Teacher going in to observe?

When DS2 was in Yr1, we were constantly being called in. I have a good friend who works in this sort of field and she said we were to go in and ask the Head to put the wheels in motion.

Basically, there is some form filling which the school do and you do then the application is submitted. It might take a couple of weeks for it to happen. In your case, if school is finishing, then I would make sure that you had someone going in a couple of weeks after the new term started.

The Behaviour teacher we had was lovely and worked with us and the school.

[stealthsquiggle]

Oh FGS the school seem intent on pushing this all off on you - have they no constructive suggestions to make?

I like Adelicatesuggestion's idea of asking him (ideally in the hoidays when it is a bit less current and stressed) what one thing he would change about school if he could. The other approach in getting to the bottom of issues which has worked for us is to play "give me one word to describe....." - we start with hopefully non-contentious things/people like Mummy, Daddy, Grandma, etc etc and then (in our case) go through the class - we were trying to find the source of teasing/bullying - and we did (he wouldn't tell us when asked directly).

[madamez]

Is it possible that his class teacher is a twat who has taken a dislike to him? IN which case things might get better in september when he changes classes.

Before every teacher on MN starts pooing and screeching with rage, I am not for one minute suggesting that all teachers are twats, but some certainly are.

[cory]

It does sound like they are expecting you to do everything and themselves to do nothing. Also, he is such a young child- surely, even NT 4yos can be quite violent?

I would try to corner the Headteacher and ask for a proper meeting where you and the school can agree on your respective parts (who chases up the psych, have they got a behaviour support teacher, whose responsibility is it to get someone to observe him, should the school push for a statement etc etc). Make sure you take notes and do everything you have agreed to. And then push them to do their part.

[GooseyLoosey]

Cariboo, my ds (just 5) has had some behavioural issues this year too. He can't shut up, he has argued with member's of staff and when children have done something to upset him, he has reacted with agression. He says he "can't control the angriness" and it just comes out.

We also have dd who is 15 months younger and like yours, the simplest thing can turn into an argument. Yesterday for eg dd decided that she did not like a particular word and then ds proceeded to construct ever more elaborate sentences with the word in to wind her up.

I have discovered several things which help:

1. Everyday when we collect him from school we check if he has been good (they have traffic lights up in the class and if he is on green, he has been good). If he gets to the end of the week having been on green all week, he gets to choose something that we do as a family at the weekend.

1. On a daily basis, if he is on green, he gets a special story before bed cuddled up in mummy and daddy's bed without dd being there. If he is not on green, we try and talk to the teacher about what went wrong and what we can all do about it (both her and us).

1. I have invented an octopus which lives in his head (long story) and I tell him lots of fun stories about the things that it does. When he is really angry, I tell him that he has to stop and imagine that he is catching hold of all 8 of his octopus's tentacles so they don't hurt anyone and only when he has done that can he react. This sometimes gives him that extra few seconds to get his anger under control.

1. Most of all, ds reacts very badly to the negative cycle we sometimes get into. You're in trouble - punishment - more frustration - more naughty behaviour - more trouble - more punishment. It is easy to perpetuate this for a long time. We find that we actively have to stop and find something that we can praise ds for - often if we make a real effort to do this, we can get ourselves into a positive cycle which is much better for us all!

Gosh - I've gone on a bit, sorry!

[bellavita]

Just to add to what Madamez said - about the teacher - in Yr1 when it all went wrong for my DS2 his teacher was bloody awful. She was used to teaching slightly older children. Had been on long term sick then come back and was given Yr1 to teach. IMO she did not have the patience to deal with any child that did not fit into her "pigeon hole".

In Yr2 he flourished - his teacher was fantastic - she understood him.

Yr3 - okish, certainly nothing like Yr1 but could be better.

[deanychip]

so pleased to read this thread.
ive had a tough time with mine as well.
he is 4, 5 next month but started school last Sept, so he had been 4 for 1.5 months......so 6 weeks before starting school he was 3.
this i think is significant.

my boy is very very difficult at home and at school. has been since a very young age.

people dislike him, family are obviously not happy with him in their houses.

negative comments from teacher and support workers.

imagine how you would feel if you knew that people actively disliked your child. its horrible.

[chisigirl]

Cariboo.

Sorry you're feeling down about your son at the moment. At various times, I could have written so much of what you did about my DS1. He is fantastic, fun and great company when he is one-on-one. But he got into all sorts of trouble at school last year (nursery year) and was eventually referred to HV and a Dev. Paed. It was a very scary year as I just couldn't see things getting better. He was taken to the Head Teacher's office on 3 occasions!

I do think the teacher makes a huge difference to behaviour. This year he has done sooo well to improve the way his behaviour at school (it's unravelled a bit this week but that's a whole different post!). I think that it's due in large part down to increasing maturity but it's also undoubtedly partly due to the teacher he has who is fantastic. She is very positive, sees the very best of him and is also very firm!

Regarding negative behaviour: my DS to our HUGE amazement definitely prefers negative attention to no attention at all. It took quite a while to really believe that, as it seems so counter-intuitive.

We also went to see an ed. psych who was excellent and gave us the following 'rules' to follow. We find them very useful and really try to stick to them as much as we can - which is sometimes really hard. They are

1. IGNORE as much as you possibly can of the 'bad' behaviour (ie pick your battles)
   
2. REALLY REWARD good behaviour with LOTS of praise
   
3. physical aggression (usually directed at DS2): never acceptable. no warnings - just straight off to time-out. then he apologies and it is NEVER mentioned again/referred back to.
   
4. NO nagging or lecturing. (the hardest one IMO!)
   
5. DISTRACT. instead of saying "no" all the time, distract with anything that comes to mind. (another toy, treat, anything you can possibly think of)
   
   Hope this isn't too much of a ramble. I just couldn't see your post and not reply. Hopefully it will make you feel a tiny bit better to know you are not alone!