Really need advice on this baby 1 year old- sleep - behaviour the works.

[mumsville]

I've put it on the sleep thread to no avail - so I'll take my chances here.

A good friend is really struggling - hasn't had a night's sleep in a year - I can't give good advice as a) my one child is quite easy to look after so I'm not an expert in different 'methods' b) i'm not in her position

Her ds who is one next week has never slept through the night. She's never even had him in any kind of routine. Before you judge - she's got a partner (useless( and is the full time carer for her old, large and disabled mum - who takes alot out of her and cannot be disturbed before 2pm every day. . For financial reasons she's had to go back to work at 5 months - ds in nursery full time. I was hoping he'd get into a routine then (ie be so knacked he'd sleep nights - but not so).

Now I do remember feeding her ds when he was tiny - and was shocked to hear him scream for milk - take three sips, push the bottle away and then repeat this pattern 5 mins later!!!!! She's managed to get him off the milk at nights - but gives juice (!) - think this is the same thing. He's never slept in his cot - I've told her to forget the cot - get him sleeping through the nights first. Am I right?

Also trying to introduce controlled crying when you've got a mum like hers - doing a full time heavy job with a 3 hour round commute (ditto her partner) where you pray you can arrive/leave work on time and no probs with trains to pick up her ds at nth hour - where does she start!!!!!

I wish I could be of more practical help to her - my ds is 6 months older - but I live over an hour away and have also just gone back to work. I'd love to be able to say I'd look after her ds one weekend - but you know it's seems ages ago my ds was one year's old and I not sure how I'd cope with the two!!!Before I went back to work I went to stay with my mum (who lives near her) and tried to persuade her to come a stay a few days and I thought that between her me and my mum we could get him into a routine - but she has her pride and didn't come. Agh!
What should she start tackling and in what order and how!

No she can't log onto mumsnet herself - she doesn't have a pc at home.

She's the lovliest most kind person in the world so your advice would be most appreciated. I do so want to see her make good progress for her own sake more than anything. I just don't know what to say to her.

Please do help. I plan to email her on Monday when she's back at work.

[bubblagirl]

well firstly i would say while baby is still fairly young to put him in the cot it will be hard no matter what she does at this age as he has had no routine so its like she will have to train him to sleep

she could put him in cot and try sittting on the floor ignoring him even if he cries just be there as he is used to company to sleep when ds is asleep she can leave room

he needs to bi in the cot i would say at his age i give my ds juice at night but he is 2.5 she needs to give him milk or water but she needs to start setting some kind of routine kids thrive on structure and routine as they know what is coming mmaybe take him to cot sit beside and read story and then sit beside cot untill gone to sleep not right by cot though nearer door but so baby knows she is there

it will be hard work first few nights as he is not used to routine but he will get used to it she needs to be consistant i know it is hard for her but it does need to be done

[3sEnough]

Heck - how on earth! If it were me (and I am a bit gung ho so be warned) I would do the whole thing at the same time so no decision as to what is first. Get her (and her partner) to write out her 'ideal routine' and for her lo, then add in what is possible with their life style (mum and nursery etc) and then start to stick to it - religiously. She could go to her HV for help, or to any friends who she has closer by. It is possible, they just need to remember who's boss!! (them, before you ask!)

[bubblagirl]

at 12 mths my ds could feed himself from small non spill cup so maybe she could leave one in his cot but have warm milk and quiet time before bed then take him through story dim light then say goodnight sit on floor so he knows she is there thats all i can think of as she has so much else to contend with but routine is so important at that age or you end up with a toddler who never sleeps and then she will have her hands full good luck to your friend

[glaskham]

personally i think if he's nearly one he is definatley ready to be sleeping through, but the juice in the night and possible cuddles/attention he may get then too wont help him at all!!i gave my son the cold turkey treatment at 10mths from being breastfed every 3hrly before then even in the night....he went into his own room, in his own cot and he stayed there till morning, if he was screaming as if he was in pain i'd go in and check him, the first time i'd say in a low, dull tone 'its bedtime now, go to sleep'.....then if it carried on go in and do the same but only say 'bedtime now'.... tuck him up and leave, then after that dont say a thing no matter how hard it was, and within a week he was sleeping through.

i did the same with my daughter at only 3mths and it only took me 3 night to have her sleeping through.

just as importantly is a good bathtime routine....for the first few months of our routine i'd let my two have a bath every night if they needed it or not, then we'd get them ready for bed and have milk and off to bed it was.....we still stick to that routine exept only have a bath every other night, and a story in its place on a no-bath night....

it may be tough on your friend for the first week or so, but if she sticks to it properly and doesn't give in she should have fantastic results in next to no time, and will enjoy her time in the evenings!!!

[mumsville]

Wow thanks so much.

*I think part of the problem is grandma - it's a difficult situatoin and she is a difficult person (through no real fault of her own) . I think the first 5 months was spent keeping ds from disturbing grandma and this has got into a pattern. However, grandma cannot be held responsible for her behaviour and this is the life my friend has.

Reaslistically should she be going for controlled crying and if so, how long does it take. Should she take annual leave for a week to get it going and try to organise some respite care for grandma in the meantime so she can concentrate on the task in hand.

Even cup of milk in her bed - I know she tried controlled crying for one night (and made hell by grandma being disturbed) but then ds got a really nasty bug and was up all night for a week with the runs and throwing up and she had to abandon this.

It's such a horrible situation. I feel tired working part time and my lovely 18 month old sleeps through the night (with a big of cajoling!).

How can the nursery help? I agree about the routine - due to time pressures they don't bath him every night (he's so tired after nursery sometimes they just give him bottle and bed).

Also, in my case - when I get home I do give ds a small nack before bedtime routine and milk as he has tea at nursery at 4.30 which is quite early for us (he's asleep by 8pm wakes 7am). Should my friend get the nursery to give him more food at about 5.30 do you think to tide him over for when she gets him at six arriving home at 6.30?(I guess she could provide the nursery with snacks?)?

[glaskham]

if she's getting him home at 6.30pm then there's enough time for a quick story/bath and cuddle before bed, then in my opinion controlled crying should be done or she'll be sitting at his cot forever and then she'll have to do it all over again when she decided enough is enough with that!! at least if she spends that half hour-45mins with him before bed he wont feel 'left out' and grandma can wait- its her grandsons time with his mummy!!!

if she wantewd to take a bit of time from work it might help ease the stress of it, and her son might co-operate better, but on the other hand he could do well but then change once she's back at work etc.....

it only takes me 10mins to bath both my kids- they dont need a long soak or anything, dunk them in, wash hair, wash body, 5 min play and out!!.....its enough for them at that age!!

[mumsville]

Glas I agree about bathtime (I think in her case is that her mum needs to be washed etc. too). My ds wuold be shocked if he didn't have his bath - and I'm convinced that by doing the same thing night after night helps him (and therefore me (wink).

If it doesn't take that long with controlled crying I'll suggest it - but I'm convinced he's up for a snack because that's all he's ever done - snacked.

Don't know how she copes - I can't even call her at the weekend as she's attending to everyone's needs.

On the rare occasions I see her I just give her food parcels so she doesn't have to cook - just wish I could do more - but it's hard being a first time mum and I've just been so lucky and had the support of others.

[glaskham]

it a shame when you have friends in that sort of position isnt it!! i have a friend who is the same really- her mum found out she was pregnant (at 46) and had nothing but complications, she had to babysit her other brothers and sisters with her own daughter there too and being pregnant herself, and her daughter didn't sleep well so she barely got any sleep and was always between hers and her mums house. her mums new partner and father of the baby was out working all the hours possible for extra money with their 4th child in the house on the way!!! now she is due to drop any day with her baby and is still always running round after her mum!!! luckily she did as i have said below and within a week her daughter was sleeping in her own room and from 7-7 within a week!!!! she has just put her daughter into bed so the new baby can have her cot and she has had nothing but perfect nights still from her!!!! she tell anyone with problem babies at bedtime the same thing, and swears the one on the way will have strict bedtime from day 1!!!!

ps- the idea about her giving him a snack at nursery would be ok, a banana or some rasins etc.....nothing at all sugary though or he'd still be awake!!! or a snack when he's having his milk before bedtime might work too- mine sometimes have some biscuits....but 'organix' ones....no sugars and stuff in it, all good stuff!!!

[mumsville]

Glas - this really is about a friend and not me (I've posted elsewhere about my relationsip problems - that is about me!) My ds is 6 months older and is a dream kiddie.

Thanks so much - I'll do a synopsis and send this through to her. I don't think I could cope with what she goes through. Next time I moan about looking after my ds I'll just shut up. I should know more but I only have experience with my ds who's 18 months (being a one year old seems like years in the past and I can barely remember him not walking!). All I know is how I coped with my relatively easy baby - I'm no way an expert and from posters have said - I'm on the wrong track. Hopefully I can tell her to go ahead with this controlled crying stuff. (I should give it a go too - my ds has progressed from cot to my bed - always slept well and as he's just started nursery I'm giving extra attention at the momement - I really don't feel that he'll have a problem graduating from my bed to his own bed a few months - yes early - but he's very very tall - too big for his cot now).

My mum lives near her (we're childhood friends) and has offered to help - perhaps she can look after the mum on the odd day to give my mate a rest.

I got a call from a mutual friend who lives the other side of the world last night - she got a frantic email from our friend and she so worried and that's got me worried.

I find mumsnet useful - I wish she was in position to tap into all the resources available.

[glaskham]

oh yes, i knew you were talking about a friends problems!! i dont disagree with you on putting your little man into a bed already, both mine were in beds before they were 18mths!! ds is nearly ready for being potty trained but am going to get his birthday and xmas out of the way and do it in jan....i'm all exited for him!!! good for you having a perfect LO!! my son was the perfect baby but is a little devil since dd arrived!! and dd was a nightmare baby but the last 6mths with her have been perfect!! so i suppose i've been pretty lucky but have had my fair share of experience between them already with them being so different!!

hope your friend has some luck with getting her little man sleeping through, hope the advice helps....and hope she doesn't think i'm a 'megabitch' for saying all that!!! haha!!

[mumsville]

Thanks for the help - she really needs to knock this one on the head.My mum lives near her and has offered to look after her mum (she might regret that) so they can get on and get him sleeping!

So glad you said your kids were in beds early. I haven't yet had the guts to collapsed and put away the cot - might do so soonish.

My ds easy going but the thing I've tripped up on is the tantrums. He had a lovely meltdown luckily just outside my home - so I opened the front door - stuck him playen and ran off to the kitchen! Agh imagine tantrum when he finally (not holding my breath here) learns to talk!

[bubblagirl]

controlled crying you dont just leave then thats it sleep therapist who comes to my ds says leave 12 min go in say hush or whatever sootheing word you want to use then leave room leave 5 mins then go back then leave every 10 mins but if histerical go in calm down with no talking aprt from trigger word then start again will take good few days as its a new routine they need to feel safe with

only said the sitting by cot as it was the quickest one to settle my ds as he was used to company to sleep slice of toast before bed is supposed to be great for helping to settle if had dinner a while before

she could ask nusresry to give him something extra or just do toast when getting in then getting bedtime routine down

bath is not nessassary every night maybe every other my ds cant have baths before bed as he sweats so much he cant sleep so that rules that out for us but he falls asleep through story now s only takes 10 mins

[mumsville]

Yep, all sounds good - I'm trying to write a summary of all this - and I'm confused.

There are such things as sleep therapists - maybe that's what they need......

[bubblagirl]

yes i have sleep therapist come out to my ds just need to ask gp or hv to refer but it still needs consistency from your friend and a strict routine sleep therapist would set this out for her to follow and she would have to record it each night but if she wants to do it she'll find a way best of luck to her though she sounds a wonderful person

[bubblagirl]

that shoild of said 2 mins to leave not 12 2 then 5 then 10

[bubblagirl]

my spelling tonight lol

[mumsville]

bubbla

Thanks - never knew they existed! Will flag it up with and I think she really might consider all this - she's clearly willing as she did try the cc.
Yes, she's so wonderful and giving - just feel I'm letting her down by not physically being there for her - I'm busy trying to bring up my own ds!

[bubblagirl]

i think she would be more than happy knowing you care this much about her to try and help any way you can your a good friend and that means alot very few people have that these days so well done you

hope she does ask as my sleep therapist is so lovely and helpful and has given me great advise and where i havent been able to something we've managed to find a good compromise that suits me and ds

so good luck to her and you keep being such a great friend sometimes we just need that someone to listen to the groaning

[mumsville]

bubbla - thanks again - and I hope your little one and you get some lovely sleep tonight!