5 year old can't be bothered to go to the toilet at home - OK at school!

[swtb]

I am tearing my hair out with my DD1 who has just turned 5 and is in reception. She was late to potty train (just after 3rd BD and dry at night almost immediately after dry during the day). She has only ever wet the bed twice and both times when ill. She has always been a bit unreliable and often needs prompting to go for a wee(poos OK). She was fine at pre-school and also hasn't had an accident at school although trousers sometimes a bit smelly(!) Just lately she has been leaving it until desperate and then still doesn't go - takes me or someone else to notice her jiggling about or worse a wet patch on her clothes. Never a full wee (thank goodness). On her 5th birthday she wet herself whilst playing with her cousins on a family day out. Today she almost did it at a party with all her schoolfriends - luckily I saw her wriggling and dragged her to the loo - she had a wet patch on her torusers. The worst thing is that she doesn't care, isn't embarassed and there is nothing that I can say that will make her bothered. She admits that she is being lazy!! We have a triple swing and slide for the garden in the garage ready to be put together but her dad is refusing to do it while she is having accidents! Any help most gratefully received, thanks! Sorry post is so long - I'm a newbie so forgive me!!

[Tiggerish]

swbt - I have a ds who is almost 5 and still regularly wets in the day. I switch between getting really stressed out and ignoring it. Neither makes any difference. I'm just hoping he'll grow out of it

[hairymclary]

I used to do this as a child. I still don't really know why, although I think it may have been a control thing. I do know that the more people told me to go, the more I would hold on and refuse.
Have you tried a reward chart with her? a star for every time she goes to the loo without being prompted and then a treat when she gets x amount of stars?

[sunnysideup]

personally I wouldn't give this headspace, except obviously for reminding and encouraging her to go.

I certainly wouldn't make the new swing in the garden dependent on it. I firmly believe the more attention you pay to this sort of thing, the less it helps.

[swtb]

Thanks to all of you who have replied so far. We had a brainwave and have decided to just give DD1 water to drink after she's had milk with breakfast. This means she doesn't drink so much (although the downside is that we have to remind her to drink). Characteristically she isn't bothered and hasn't complained.

The swing is going up at the weekend - perhaps we will detatch the swings temporarily if she relapses.

I like the idea of a starchart - we have one somewhere which I will dig out.

Thanks again.

[raspberryberet]

I don't think limiting her drinks is the answer. And I certainly wouldn't punish her by not putting up the swing (or taking it down again) if she has accidents. That just turns it into something bigger than it needs to be, and power games like this always end up difficult to win. Offering a reward, like the star chart, might be a better bet - we all respond better to rewards than to the threat of punishment.

It sounds as if she knows what she's doing, and the fact that she doesn't do it at school suggests to me that it may even be a form of attention-seeking. Even negative attention is still attention, so I would stop making a fuss about it, or threatening punisments, and completely ignore it. If she wet herself, I wouldn't comment on it, just make her go and deal with it herself - put the wet clothes in the washing basket, clean herself up, get herself changed - don't do any of it for her. Act as if you just don't care one way or the other, even if you are cross with her. Make it the most boring thing on earth for her, so she has no incentive at all (positive or negative) to be lazy.

[swtb]

Thank you raspberryberet. It would take an amazing amount of control on my part to do what you are suggesting - and possible embarrassment for me but I suppose I shouldn't be concerned about that. I already have people asking how I'm getting on with potty training my 2 1/2 DD2 - I can't face that yet because DD1 has been so difficult in that regard.

We are going to my sister's today so the 4 cousins will be playing out in the garden all day (she has a field, woods etc.) - that will be a real test of whether she can be bothered to come in to wee.

I suppose what I find hard to understand is why the general consensus is that "time out", naughty step, reduction in treats etc is appropriate for other undesirable (for want of a better word) behaviour - but most of you are saying that "forgetting" to go to the toilet, even if we know that the child can behave in the desired way if they can be bothered (and has admitted herself that she is just being lazy) shouldn't attract the same response.

If it is a bahaviour that the child can control why isn't punishment of some kind appropriate? And if it doesn't work for this type of problem are you saying that it doesn't work full stop?!

Thanks again to anyone who is taking the time to reply.

[Tiggerish]

swtb - i think the no punishment thing is related to stress. If a child feels under stress it makes the wee problem a whole lot worse. Their bladder control is generally a bit tenuous and stress often means they lose it completely. So although they can most of the time control it, sometimes they can't.

I think it is important that they realise that their behaviour is not acceptable though. With ds if he has an accident when we are out, he loses out on any fun things we were going to do.

hth
Tigs.

[raspberryberet]

Many types of children's behaviour need an amazing amount of control by their parents - it's what children do! And as for embarrassment ... it will be your daughter who runs the risk of embarrassment, not you, if you stop taking responsibility for keeping her dry and leave her to do it herself. It sounds as if she is never completely wet because you spot the signs and whisk her off to the loo, and if you're doing that, rather than letting her take herself, then maybe you are taking away any motivation she has for going to the toilet herself. Maybe letting her embarrass herself would be a good way of making her think for herself - she has no reason to stop being lazy if you are always ready to do it all for her. She is only lazy around you, not the teachers - might that be because she knows the teachers won't take responsibility for taking her to the loo in the way that you do?

With regard to punishing for other forms of bad behaviour, this type of problem is a completely different thing to many of the other forms of behaviour which punishments work for. Too much emphasis on toilet behaviour, and punishing them for toileting mistakes, can lead to further problems in that area later on, which can be very hard to correct. Plus it's something that happens several times a day, not just occasionally, so you end up feeling constantly stressed out about it.

Also, it's not something that you can take full control of in the way that you can with other bad behaviour, so punishing in the same way won't always be possible. If she's pulling her friend's hair or smacking the dog you can physically make her stop, and punish her in a way that puts you back in control. You can't make her stop doing this in the same way so she remains in control of the situation, not you - even if you punish her, there is bugger all you can do to stop it happening again.

And maybe if you make her take responsibility for her own toileting, her embarrassment at being completely wet, cold and uncomfortable may just be enough punishment on it's own.

IMO the best way to deal with any kind of attention-seeking behaviour is to ignore it - and that's any kind of attention-seeking, not just this kind. When a child is attention-seeking they don't really care whether the attention is praise or shouting; any attention is better than nothing. So even if you respond with shouting and punishments, they have your attention and the behaviour worked.

[SugarmagEatsMatzah]

Hi swtb - I understand exactly how frustrating you are finding this and how hard it is to ignore and your anxiety over toilet training number 2. I will tell you my story (have repeated it a few times on here over the last couple of years) and hope it helps.

DD was toilet trained at 2 yrs 9months. She'd been using a potty off and on for months and got the hang of it pretty quickly. Within about 2 months she was 100% dry at night, 100% dry at the childminder. But she was still having a lot of accidents at home and if she was out with us. Not poo, just wee, but full-on puddles on the floor. Like you, I found it very hard to ignore and would get really frustrated. I wouldn't tell her off or punish her but she knew I wasn't happy. She'd always been strong-willed and the longer this went on the more convinced I was that it was a power struggle. I asked everyone for advice. Everyone told us to ignore it completely. If she got wet just get her changed without a word, without so much as an unhappy look then carry right on with whatever we were doing before. So we tried this. For three weeks this went on. She went from having 3-4 accidents a week to 2-3 a day. She was now 3 yrs and 4 months.

So one afternoon we were all at a friends house and she was supposed to be getting a special treat of staying for dinner then having a bath with her friend and coming home in her pjs - kind of like a little mini sleepover, without the sleeping bit. They played all afternoon. She never went to the toilet. We asked if she needed to go. She was adament that she didn't. Hours went by. Then just before dinner she just stood up and did a wee right in the middle of the living room. Well, DH and I were furious. We scooped her up and had her in the car so fast she didn't know what hit her. Made it quite clear that if she wasn't grown up enough to go to the toilet then she certainly wasn't grown up enough for a "sleep-over".

I kid you not, it never happened again. Since then the only times she has been wet is when she's ill.

She's 6 now and being thought of as "grown up" is still extremely important to her. And we still work on eliminating unwanted behaviour by promising "grown up" treats in exchange for "grown up" behaviour. At this stage that happens to be getting to stay up later than DS at the weekends if she doesn't have temper tantrums during the week. So at the risk of being the voice of dissent I would say you possibly can eliminate this kind of behaviour the same as any other unwanted behaviour with a combination of praise & punishment.

[Tiggerish]

Sugar - thanks for your story. It's nice to know of a success! Although my ds is a bit older than your dd was, it might work the same way. It's got to be worth a try at least

[swtb]

Hi Sugar, many thanks for taking the time to type your story out again! Perhaps it just depends on the child as to what will work.

We are continuing with water to drink most of the time and we have had no accidents at all - last one was Monday so not bad. Today we have reintroduced weak juice with her evening meal, and we continue to remind her what we are trying to acheive and praising her success.

We have found the star chart (an ELC one which is very structured so not ideal but we have adapted it until I have time to produce one myself!)

My DH and his Dad put the swing together today and DD1 is thrilled. I have shown her how the swings can be easily removed by one of us if we feel that her behaviour warrants it (we didn't specify any particular type of behaviour).

So all in all we are happy with progress.

I continue to be very grateful for the kind messages of advice and recounting of experiences from all of you. Thanks very much and Happy Easter.

[SugarmagEatsMatzah]

That's great swtb, hope you and her manage to keep up the good work!