4 year old extremely aggressive at school but an angel at home

[CerealThriller]

Hello everyone,

I am seeking advice regarding my four year old who is exhibiting very aggressive behaviour, at school in particular.

We had an issue with physical aggression and not listening at nursery that the educational psychologist put down to being ' a phase' and the head teacher suggested most of the kids 'act up' when they are due to start big school.
As soon as the six weeks holiday started my child was considerably calmer and much happier. She was able to concentrate on tasks and we saw very little aggression.
She has recently started big school which she was excited about and she does enjoy going. However, the aggressive behaviour has come back and has escalated.
She has only been there a week and a half and has already had to be excluded from the playground play times due to her aggression and the behaviour is now spilling into class.
When asked she says she doesn't want to hit but does it because she is angry.
When asked what makes her angry she says she doesn't know.
Aside from the aggression she is a wonderful child who I am complemented upon. She shows great empathy for children younger or smaller than her and really has a knack for making friends wherever she goes.
She is bright, creative and loves making little gifts for friends and family.
It is just this aggression that is baffling me.
At home it is a different story. She takes awhile to diffuse from school but does not hit, scratch, kick etc at home and is always finding pictures to paint or books to read.
School are implementing a reward system to encourage good behaviour as this is something we do at home that works and the head teacher has requested to see me next week to discuss ways of supporting my child.
I'm very tempted to withdraw my child and home school as it seems all formal education has taught her is how to fight and scream.
I was home schooled so appreciate the benefit one on one attention can bring but I also want to get to the route of the aggression so am mindful not to make any knee-jerk reactions.
I do think my child would thrive from being taught at home as she is just beautiful when in a calm environment with lots of encouragement.

Sorry for the essay! All input appreciated.

[DefinitleySpeltWrong]

I'm sure you have already though of it but Is it simply that she is tired?
I have a DD who was a real jeckle and Hyde and it was always tiredness.

[DefinitleySpeltWrong]

Sorry for typos

[DeWee]

Ds was like that. He has glue ear and found lots of noise difficult to deal with. I would get that checked, most parents whose child has it don't realise. I didn't realise until ENT pointed it out that that ds was lip reading.

Tell the GP you are worried about her hearing and it's causing behaviour issues at school. Hopefully that will give her priority.

[CerealThriller]

Thank you - something I had not considered but will be getting checked out.

[CerealThriller]

Hello :-)

Yep tiredness was definately a factor during nursery and certainly is having an impact.

She sleeps well and goes to bed with no issues but is fit for nothing by mid-afternoon. I do think a school day is too long for little ones :-/

However, she will be tired at school and be a rat bag but of a weekend / school holiday our days are jam packed and she still gets tired but we don't see any of these outbursts she likes to show at school.

[Iggly]

In your chat with her, she is asked why she hits and she says because she's angry. You and the teachers could try giving her ways of dealing with the anger. E.g. tell the person with her words that she is feeling angry (she can use and angry face but no shouting)/and to walk away and count to five. Or walk away and take deep breaths. It sounds like she doesn't have the tools to deal with stuff.

[JammyGeorge]

I feel your pain. DS1 started reception a couple of weeks ago. All was going great, really excited about going, no tears and very happy.

Until yesterday got a call off the teacher after school to say that he had been 'sanctioned' which I think means stopped from playing out at break time as earlier in the day he was running round the playground hitting children . She would have mentioned it at pick up but he collected by nursery for after school club.

I can't believe it. We've had problems with him being rough at nursery as he's very big and tall and much bigger than the other kids so was pushing etc but for the last 3/4 months he's been great.

I gave him a good telling off and made it very clear the consequences of bad behaviour at school but to be honest I'm at a loss as to what I can do.

When he is at home with me I have no real problems. He went through a phase of violent temper tantrums but that passed months ago.

Sorry I'm no help but wanted you to know you are not alone!

[CerealThriller]

Thank you JammyGeorge! Much appreciated. When I am stood in that playground waiting to pick her up I do feel like I am the only one in the world with a child with such a, erm, artistic temperament.

[CerealThriller]

Thank you Iggly.

Dad and I have both taught her to breathe and count to ten which she does and at home she is great at saying that she needs to calm down and will voluntarily sit quietly somewhere by herself before joining back in with whatever we are doing.
It rarely gets to the point at home though where she needs to utilise any of this.
It seems these tools just fall apart at school so we are in the market for some new ones :-)

[JammyGeorge]

You aren't the only one! It's awful I was sat at work today with a feeling of dread but luckily he's had a good day.

Like you I can't get any real sense out of ds1. I can't work out if it's a charging around like a puppy dog and whipping himself into a frenzy that's causing him to lash out or whether he is losing his temper and hitting in anger. I did the same as you about walking away, counting etc but whether he takes it in I don't know.

I asked why he did it he said he didn't know. I asked how he felt and he said 'super scared'. I don't know if it's sensory and he's struggling with the playground.

When we were taking he said that after school he was going to leave and go to another world and that I would have to get another little boy, a good one. I wanted to find the nearest rock and crawl under it.

It's a nightmare but I'm sure we will get through it! My thinking is that the teachers and school have much more experience than us at dealing with 4 year olds and we should follow their lead and support them. It is very early days in their school lives.

[CerealThriller]

Hi Jammydodger,

How is your son getting on?

Things have got worse for my little one. She has scratched someone across the neck and the deputy head said she didn't show any remorse and appeared uninterested when being asked why she had done it.

She did say to me on the way home that she was sorry and she does know it is wrong but I just don't know why she is not expressing that at school?
Maybe it was being confronted and the nonchalance was a defence mechanism? (I'm a psychology student can't you tell?!)

Had the awful experience of three teachers essentially frowning at me in the playground today while they each listed off my child's offences.
I felt really cornered and knocked down.


Am in tears as I type. I really don't know what to do for the best.
She is a good kid, honestly if you met her you would be knocked out by what a smart, funny, kind little doll she is.
It seems school brings out this horrendous side and I feel the school are pointing the finger at me being an appaling mother (I'm not and I know I am not).
I just want her out as I know this anger would subside if she was home schooled but of course I know the catalyst for the behaviour needs to be rooted out.

Exasperated. Sorry, needed to vent x

[lougle]

I think you're mistaken if you are keeping her in school to find the root cause. The priority for the school will be stopping the behaviour. An ed psych will be looking to observe strengths and weaknesses rather than diagnosing cause.

If she is an otherwise typically developing child with no concerns about hearing, speech and language, other developmental areas, etc., then a developmental paediatrician won't be interested. Even CAMHS won't be interested until all other strategies (ELSA -emotional literacy support - nurture groups, reward charts, sanctions, etc) have been put in place.

You say you'd like to HE her. Why not? You can either HE her now and try again when she's a bit older, or just HE her.

I have one in special school, one in MS primary and one HE. The HE DD struggled for 2.5 years at school. Too long. If I had waited for consistent support to be put in place I could have waited forever! She's gradually getting over her school experience. My other two are thriving in their schools. Horses for courses.

If you do want to stick with school, you could ask them to keep an ABC chart (antecedent, behavior, consequence). You might be able to see a pattern. For example, a flare up if someone invades her personal space; disagreement; no warning of change in activity; lots of noise; unstructured activities; near to meal times, so hungry; at the end of the day -tired; at the beginning of the day, missing you, etc.

[CerealThriller]

Lougle, thank you so much for that.
You speak a lot of sense.

In my heart of hearts I do want to HE as I know that would help her no end. As I typed that about going to school to find the route cause I thought why? Why wait? The cause is school. It's that environment she struggles with.
The school have added they can see when all the kids surround her (which they do because she is super social and they all love her, despite her bopping them) that she struggles and lashes out.

All her other areas are fine. Small issue with speech and language (just can't quite get her tongue around pronouncing 'c' words) but she had no issue with communication, making friends, imaginative play etc.

However, I think the school are nudging towards an ASD diagnosis as she doesn't seem to show this side when she is there. It is like that environment overwhelms her and inhibits her.
I am certain she does not meet the criteria for ASD but appreciate they can only go by what they observe.

Thanks again, I feel much more calmer and empowered from your message.

These kids are bloody rascals for what they put us through!

[lougle]

HE her. Start by finding out about your local HE groups (you can PM me your location if you'd like and I can find out which groups operate in your area).

My local HE group is great. I can also access about 4 other HE groups if I wanted to!

DD2 (7) is learning French. £4 for a 45 minute lesson with a tutor with a French degree, in a group of 6-8 children!

[JammyGeorge]

Oh cereal how awful.

Having to face 3 teachers in those circumstances must have been very hard and upsetting I was bawling my eyes out the other day and our teacher was being lovely.

Have the teachers had a good chat with you about what's actually going on? Yes she scratched someone but there can be so much more to it than that, was it triggered by something? Did she lose her temper (hulk style) or did she just run up and do it? Is it different kids she's doing it to or the same one? Was it a game of something like tag and she's got over excited or frustrated?

They need to work out what is going on and how they are going to deal with it. It's no good laying it on you hours after the event. Yes you can support the school and back them up but there really is little you can do when she is in their care.

I can see the appeal of HE but it seems such early days at school.

Mind DS is my first I'm certainly no experts in schools and children's behaviour!

DS has had an ok few days btw. No further incidents and no sanctions so I'm happy but it's only a matter of time I think. He just a big loud boisterous riot. He's not hit anyone but he's fell and banged his head 2 days in and row and bloodied his nose. He's covered in scratches, I really wonder what goes on in these school yards.

[CerealThriller]

Hello JammyGeorge,

Good to hear your little chap is having a better time. Still early days in their school life isn it? Hard to keep that in mind though.

The school didn't know / hadn't asked why she scratched. She told me it was because she was trying to spell the little boys name but couldn't do it.
The anger seems to come from frustration.

Yep, meeting the deputy and the teacher Monday morning but my mind is made up to be honest.
I think I will be de registering her and commencing HE.

I was put off by the three if them cornering me in the playground infront of my children and reeling off this list of indiscretions. If that's how they approach a parent how on earth are they approaching my child?
I also observed the deputy scold my daughter for just lifting her skirt to tell me it was wet (jumping in puddles, bloody peppa pig!). She did flash her pants but that was unintentional but the deputy rolled her eyes at the other teachers before telling my child to put their skirt down at once.
Sure, tell her to lower her skirt but you can be friendly while doing it.

I don't know, I'm not happy with how they are supporting my little monkey and something about the actions of this afternoon has just left me feeling like these are not people I want in my child's life for 6 hours a day 5 times per week.

I just see it as she was angry at nursery, angry at school but thrives, learns and is at peace when at home so going to do what keeps my tot in a good place.

Wishing you a lovely weekend and thank you x

[JammyGeorge]

They really don't sound a good set of staff.

The best thing you can do is to follow your instincts, if that's HE then do it!

Make sure you tell them why on Monday though, you've enough on your plate with an angry upset child without facing a witches cauldron.

Good luck! If my problems continue I may be joining you in HE.

[CerealThriller]

Hey there, just thought I would say I did deregister my daughter on Monday, much to the absolute shock of the deputy head ha!
Her face hit the floor.

We have had a wonderful, stress-free week. Mornings spent either at soft play or the local nature reserve and afternoons painting, playing and cooking.
There has not been one single incident of my daughters behaviour being an issue and she has not stopped singing and dancing haha!

Hope things are turning around for you also x

[lougle]

Enjoy it.

DD2 is trying a smaller school from Monday, so our HE journey is over, for now, but it was definitely worth it.

[mistyreeves1881]

I know this is probably a long shot as the thread is so old but I could have written this myself after the last 2 weeks with my DS starting school... do you mums of the future have any updates or advise x

[Reffy1]

Other mothers - advice please. My almost three-year-old has been ill the last three days so he has been sleeping in a bed next to one of us or on the sofa with one of us (due to vomiting and temp). He is now a little better but refuses to sleep in his bed and is currently (massively) doing his nut. I have juggled deadlines (work from home) with looking after him at home all day which is no mean feat. But now he’s hysterically screaming for me (I’m still working) and refuses to let his Daddy put him down. I really need a break, if nothing but to catch up on work and eat or pee! What do I do?