2YO DS refusing bedtime, nightmare - HELP!

[JessieParker]

I have a 2.5 DS who detests bedtime. He loves the process of getting ready, but when it comes to the crunch, he's not having it. What doesn't help is that he sleeps in a bed, and we have a coach-house (meaning that he can get up whenever he feels like it and not have to contemplate stairgates etc to interupt evening time).

He screams like mad, and ends up making myself and dh yell back. DH is very stressed by this, and admits he hates arguing with him. I try to find what he wants, but he says 'No' to everything. Bedroom door is easy to open, so I cannot shut him in and leave him (unlike old house where this was possible). Asks for hugs/food/drink/story etc but when I approach he curls up in a ball and refuses. I have introduced a 1/2/3/4/5 system where if he doesn't doe what I ask by 5, he has a smack. This works to a point, but not for keeping him in bed.

He is a joy during the day, and doesn't always have a nap.

He is at childminder 4 days p/w and she has a knack where 'bedtime/nap' means he'll go happily up to her bed, and lie down. Sometimes complains, but always does it.

Why not for me?!

[Miaou]

Jessie, he's obviously sussed that he can control your attention at bedtime. Kids can be so clever at these things!!!

You mention that there is a door on his bedroom - can you put a stairgate across the entrance to his room? So the door is open, but he can't get out.

You could also introduce a reward system for him - sticker chart/pasta jar - there are lots of threads on these, I will find one for you if you want. Eg If he goes to bed nicely he gets a sticker, once he gets a certain number of stickers he gets a treat (whatever you think will motivate him, but something small). Make sure it's visible so he can see his progress. I don't think 2.5 is too young for this.

Other than that - you need to be firm with him and not give him any kind of attention, positive or negative. Even if you can't put a stairgate across his room, if he comes out, simply take him back to bed without speaking to him. You may have to do it up to thirty plus times the first night but once he realises you mean business he will give up. It will take a few nights for the message to sink in though.

Let me know your thoughts so far.

[KiwiKate]

I agree with Miaou. Just keep putting him back,with no conversation. He'll get the message. You have to be ABSOLUTELY ruthless about it though, otherwise he will learn that all he needs to do is push to a certain point, and then he'll have you running around fetching drinks, reading stories etc.

Our ds is very good with bedtime. On the odd occassion when he plays up we tell him "you can choose - time out or bed" and then he chooses bed (or if he does not then he goes to timeout until he agrees to go to bed without a performance).

Does your ds have interesting duvet/pillow? we got some second hand but interesting duvets and pillows (eg Thomas which ds loves, another has robots on it etc).

Also I think you need to tell him that it is bedtime now. Do not argue (you'll never win). Also, you need to have a system (perhaps before he gets into bed) of letting him tell you if he wants anything else, and then there needs to be a cut off time when you no longer ask him what he wants (what he wants is your attention and he is getting it).

If you want to close him in his room, you may be able to put a small sliding bolt on the outside of his door and slide the bolt closed (did you have trouble getting him to sleep in your old house where you could close him in? if not this might be a good solution).

I always tell my ds "don't call me because I am not coming" (didn't realise I said this so much until he started putting his teddies to bed and telling them the same thing).

My ds is also 2.5yo, and while I am not anti smacking, I find that smacking does not work with him.

Also, if ds is being a bit difficult, DH and I both tell him it is bed time (closing ranks and refusing to discuss it gives him a clear message that this is going to happen, and it is happening now).

Also I give him other choices eg he can choose which pyjamas to wear or which book we are going to read, but the actual bed time is not negotiable. So he feels he has some control over the process because he gets to choose some things.

Good luck. Did you know that this is one of the most common parenting problems? So you are not alone. watch some of the supernanny programs that are on TV they really have some excellent tips on this kind of thing. Whatever you decide to do, you and dh need to be following the same proceedure and be consistent with it.

[KiwiKate]

Also, do you have a bedtime routine? I am a bit anti-routines, I must admit. I prefer flexibility. But we got to the stage where our ds needed the structure at bedtime. We do a very basic routine.

I tell him that it is nearly bed time. Find out if he wants a drink or something to eat. Then it is toilet, teeth, feed the fish, in bed for prayers, then lights out (we read a lot during the day, and I don't make bath time part of bedtime routine because he started resisting the bath by saying "I don't want to go to bed" everytime I mentioned bathing). The only exception to the routine is that sometimes after feeding the fish he will ask for toilet again and I let him go as 9 out of 10 times when he asks at this stage he does need to go and is not just delaying bedtime.

When ds has his drink/snack before bed (or if he says he does not want any) I still tell him each night what is going to happen next. I say, "right, after this drink we are going to do toilet, teeth, feed fish, prayers bed" - and even on nights when he says he is not tired, just hearing what is coming next seems to help
make him co-operative.
Also, if I were you, I'd tell your ds that we are going to do bed time differently now.

[JessieParker]

Ok, thanks for tips. I'll try the stairgate across the door. That might be productive. I spoke to my childminder too, and she said similar things - i.e. firm, no hugs/kisses for 'bad' behaviour.

We do try and let him choose somethings leading up to bedtime - books/drink etc.

The reason why I asked for tips was because he wasn't responding to these either.

He's got a duvet set w/ robots on, and his room is decorated with Bob builder.

We found last night that if it's one parent putting him down, he's ok. It's like he plays us off against each other, I'll chat with dh and stress that closing ranks is a must.

thanks again, and I'll keep you posted with progress!

[Miaou]

How did you get on this evening, Jessie?

[JessieParker]

Not so good. I started off with good intentions - discussed everything through the meal time, and told ds what was happening next. That worked really well.

Then it was bedtime, and again he asked for things then refused them. After a request for story/drink/hug (each refused when offered) I kept quiet then put him back into bed, closed the door and waited outside.

He got up, and we had a period of about 1/2 hour where he would ask for story, I'd say bed, he'd muck around and I'd pick him up, put him to bed and walk out again. Requests started with story then progressed to drink. He started to get the gist of things and towards the end of 1/2 an hour he was climbing back into bed himself.

When I discussed with dh beforehand, he said yes, support all the way through. However practice was different, he got annoyed at me constantly not saying anything, shutting him in, not giving in etc. I wanted to prove a point about the drink thing so I asked him to get a glass of water, so I could show him why not to give in. He then ended up taking over the situation, and gave in to ds completely. Gave him a drink, hugged him, and (this really annoyed me) laid down on the bed next to ds to 'get him to sleep'. I don't agree with dh doing this, as it makes ds expect someone to lie down with him at bedtime.

Admittedly ds did go to sleep within 10 mins, but I don't want that as a routine. I explained about this site and the tips I had, and he wasn't very polite about the advice everyone helped me with.

We ended up arguing about it, which is not how I want to deal with dss behaviour.

We've been in situations similar to this before when ds was younger - he never used to sleep though the night, and as I wasn't working I was expected to deal with ds. As a result I was knackered and depressed.

My Mum helped us through this by proving a point at her house (it's an old Victorian built detached, with really thick walls, so you can leave ds to yell, and not notice). This helped then, and was fixed in about a week, but ds was only about 9 months old, and was in a cot. Now he's in a bed, I need dhs support more than ever - I've tried telling him this, and comparing the current situation to the previous one, but he although he starts off supportive, he gives in too quickly.

[bootsmonkey]

If your DH is happy with his method of putting him to bed, let him do the bedtime routine. My DD is 3.5yo and goes through spates of this. I too do not want to get into a routine where I have to spend an hour or whatever lying on the bed, rubbing her back etc., becaue in the end it is never enough for her and she will simply not fall asleep with me in the same room. Plus, I lose my evening and dinner ends up being too late to eat! NEVER try to enter a discussion (learnt from bitter experience). I give into the needing a wee, but only once. I will go back up but only once. Then DH takes over. Repeating 'bedtime' like a mantra and in answer to every question gets the point across. It's amazing how many things they find to tell you about th day when lights out is imminent. I go incredibly stony faced and feel very cruel, but in the end, it has to be done as she needs to sleep and I need a few hours to myself!

When I am away on work she NEVER plays up for my DH.........

[Miaou]

Sorry to hear you didn't get the support you wanted, Jessie. You sound like you did really well and it was working for you.

I would second bootsmonkey's first comment - if your dh is not prepared to support you on this, then is he prepared to put ds to bed by himself every night? I am sure he will soon get tired of dealing with ds's demands and want to try the other way again!

Alternatively - does your dh ever work away? Or can/do you go to stay at your mums occasionally? Could you use that kind of opportunity to break the cycle of attention at bedtime therefore circumventing your dh?

Ideally you should discuss the bedtime routine with dh and really emphasise that unless you are really firm to start with, the situation will simply build and ds will start to up the ante and demand even more attention - because that's what kids are like! And that once the hard work is done, over a relatively short period of time (it should take less than a week - and you were already seeing progress during the first night!). However I know what stubborn husbands are like so therefore I have suggested some alternative (underhand) methods to sort it out.

And you can tell him that it's not just mumsnet who offers this advice - so does supernanny, little angels, etc - it's a commonly used strategy. And he can stick that in his pipe and smoke it !

Let us know what happens - miaou x
Re your ds falling asleep within ten minutes - I am tempted to think that he was tired out with all his exertions in trying to get your attentions and was therefore ready to sleep!

[muminlondon]

Was going to suggest the same thing when I read your last post - let your DH do the routine if he thinks he's so brilliant at it. Make sure you are doing something else - i.e. cook dinner, go out, do the ironing, talk on the telephone, so that he has to go through with it.

My dd (2.7) prolongs the bedtime routine as long as possible - sometimes not sleeping till 9.30 pm. DH is very good at acknowledging when we need a united front but we do have different styles, particularly at bedtime when he loves to play with her (I just want to keep her calm and get her settled quickly). I let him deal with her if its his fault she's over-excited. Fortunately she's still in her cot and not figured out how to climb out, so we can ignore her after a certain point.

[Orinoco]

Message withdrawn

[motherinferior]

This thread is stiffening my spine; DD2 is the same age and is suddenly a nightmare at bedtime and I feel like one of those weak-willed parents in humilating nanny programmes

[KiwiKate]

JessieP, I am sorry that the fact that the bedtime issue is stressing you, isn't enough for your DH to back you up.

Agree with other posters. If DH thinks a prolonged bedtime is fine, then let him do it. If he wants you to do it, then you need to be able to do it your way with his support. Problem is that the more you give in, the more demanding they become.

(I only let ds out of bed once for toilet at bedtime - then I tell him "don't call me, because I am not coming". If he does go on we do check to make sure that he doesn't have a real problem, but we do it in a lowkey manner and he does not get attention unless he is ill or something)

[JessieParker]

Miaou - DH and I 'chatted' last night re routine - I (attempted to!) put my foot down and said I don't like having 2 routines for bed - his and mine. He semi agreed but thinks his was is best. We compromised and I said that I'd give him a month... I reckon with a week or too ds will get worse. I have said bedtime is his routine - I will interact to a point, ie tea/bath/hugs but then when the crunch comes, I'll not get involved.

I asked him to give me a week to try 'my' method, but he disagreed. He thinks I'm treating ds like a robot, no mollycoddles/hugs/kisses etc. Problem is, if I offer these, 90% of the time they are refused at the moment. I agree with Kiwikate, I don't usually have a routine, but bedtime needs one.

Unfortunately dh doesn't work away, but does often go to friends house/pub for socialising. (leaving me at home with ds!), so I can get some time to myself. Used to find it annoying, but now look forward to the next time he goes out!

We'll see how this goes over the next couple of days - unfortunately I can't access this forum at home due to waiting for phone line to be connected! (new-build house)

Thanks for everything so far, will keep you posted x

[Miaou]

I think that you are handling this well Jessie - well done for sticking to your guns! A shame that dh wouldn't let you try your way - maybe he'll change his mind once ds has run him ragged! Hope that it works out ok for you - I will keep checking back to this thread

[JessieParker]

Well, 2 weeks on, and dh's routine is not quite so successful - he's starting to use some of the techniques I suggested. The 'first we'll do this, then we'll do this' has been a hit.

Now we can bribe him into bed without too much fuss, if dh promises (diluted) fruit juice.

Only problem is that ds decided to get up at 2.45 this morning, and wouldn't settle till he'd had another glass of fj!

We're getting there, but I timed him the other night, and it took 2 hours for him to finally settle! Thankfully he didn't have to go to the childminders the next day, but he was a bit ratty in the morning.