To not like this Idea of a new multicultural Britain

(790 Posts)
monkeyfarm Wed 12-Dec-12 10:55:42

I suspect this probably won't go down too well but I'm just being honest as I'm interested to see if I'm the only one who feels this way?
I hate how things are changing, how I can be in a store feel like I'm in eastern europe, why are we one of the only countries that do this? why can't we take a leaf out of the book of Australia and open our doors to people who have something to contribute and not just all and sundry?
Am I on my own in feeling this way?

BegoniaBampot Sun 23-Dec-12 14:21:50

If I remember only one person brought up the British shop thing and no-one agreed with them. If I meet someone and they were born here, educated here and have a local accent and identify as British or English, Scottish etc - then yeas I automatically accept them as British as the next person. But is it really that surprising that some folk find it harder. I grew up in a small practically all white town. Never saw someone in Hijab till I was older and moved away. Now I have friends who wear hijab who were born here I don't think much of it - I'm used to it. but If I was honest, I just don't think it's that surprising or wrong for people to still see this kind of thing as 'other' - to wonder if that person is originally from here. I think things have changed so much in the UK and you can't expect it all to happen overnight and for everyone to adapt as easily as others - this doesn't have to make you racist.

I've lived in countries where due to my 'differences' I wasn't really accepted, it was presumed I wasn't from there, had my children stared at, photographed and actually grabbed - I didn't think there was really anything surprising or wrong with this (other than the chasing and the grabbing).

crescentmoon Sun 23-Dec-12 12:23:38

i think muslimsfrom england, amongst ourselves, are more likely to be proud of the city they are from. so 'im a london girl', 'im a scouser', im a brummie or whatever

crescentmoon Sun 23-Dec-12 12:21:31

iv always felt proud to say im british but not english. iv met brown muslims like me who say 'im scottish' or 'im welsh'. iv met proud 'im irish' muslims but iv never met a muslim born in england who says 'im english'. 'im british' yes but not 'im english'. it is that internalisation of the message.

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 12:17:10

just general to whoever in the thread mentioned that stuff, not you in particular, just vocalising how it feels.

BegoniaBampot Sun 23-Dec-12 12:08:57

Who is 'you'? Is that to me or a general you?

nailak Sun 23-Dec-12 11:47:27

chiba brings up an important point, the internalization of the message. It is not only citizens who have moved here as an adult, but people who moved here as babies or were born here also do this.

The very fact that you view people as different and separate makes them separate themselves.

This is what I am trying to challenge here. People say they only use British shops, but if the shops are owned by someone who was born here whose parents werent? But still you would look at them and identify them as different and not British.

Many women wearing hijab were born here. But you would look at them and say they are not British. Therefore they stay in areas they feel accepted. Where they can work and no one raises an eyebrow.

I am sure if you go to Westfield there are many women working there wearing hijab!

BegoniaBampot Sun 23-Dec-12 11:01:11

I understand that but I think I would always feel my original nationality in my head and in my heart even if I officially renounced it or whatever you do unless I had been a young child when we moved. I can understand why people feel conflicted when they have a background of one nationality or culture but are born and brought up in another.

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Sun 23-Dec-12 10:51:04

Begonia but it depends where you were born. If, say, you are from Egypt then naturalising would mean you can travel to certain other countries more easily.

It also means that if you also renounce your other citizenship or come from a country that doesn't allow dual nationality, like Zimbabwe, you can't be deported from the UK.

And it's meant to help you feel like you belong.

BegoniaBampot Sun 23-Dec-12 10:35:51

Chiba, were you born here though? If I immigrated , I don't think I would ever take the nationality of my new home other than for the practicalities of citizen ship or whatever. My children if they were born in that country would decide for themselves what nationality they identified with. My kids were born in England, up to them if they feel English or their parents nationality. They are British at least.

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Sun 23-Dec-12 09:16:24

Oh Chibi you're welcome with me.

chibi Sun 23-Dec-12 07:47:16

it is interesting to come here from a country that accepts a large number of immigrants itself, and which has a very different narrative around immigration- immigrants are ' newcomers', not ' people who come to drain the system and destroy our way of life'

for all that people claim that you are not allowed to criticise immigration in the uk, to me over the last 10 years, it seems a fairly constant stream (from politicians and the media, not random people out and about) of negativity about how immigrants are wrecking everything.

though i am a citizen here, i have internalised the message- i know i will never belong, and would never say i am british, i can just imagine the raised eyebrows!

DolomitesDonkey Sun 23-Dec-12 07:19:45

I'm in my late-30s and didn't get the BCG done due to moving schools and missing it. My doctors didn't see any need to put me on an individual programme feeling I was at very low risk. That was 20 years ago of course - it does worry me now though, getting on a tube in London iykwim.

Funny because the article seems to focus on the change to the BCG programme. There are now young people travelling abroad to countries where TB is endemic who have no protection against TB at all.

Eliza600 Sat 22-Dec-12 00:47:34

Here's another reason. And yes, it's a Daily Mail link but so what? Fact is, TB was almost eradicated and is now rife again, due to immigration.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2251748/Craig-White-Student-21-died-suffering-crippling-headaches-TUBERCULOSIS.html

pointysettia Fri 21-Dec-12 20:18:49

mumzy then that should be investigated, but there is still a heck of a lot of UKIP-type sentiment around and there is no excuse for it.

mumzy Fri 21-Dec-12 19:22:36

Pointysetta the results of recent local elections in Tower Hamlets have been tainted by serious allegations of postal vote rigging www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17857850

nailak Fri 21-Dec-12 18:55:28

just like when the commonwealth broke up then?

pointysettia Fri 21-Dec-12 18:17:49

DolomitesDonkey I suspect if the EU were to break up I would stay here in the UK - it's where I've built up my career and my pension, it's where my children were born. I'd probably naturalise, as I've said before.

I've been lucky in terms of learning English, I spent a year here when I was 10, picked it up more or less automatically and have been bilingual ever since. When I was living in Holland I had English friends who were working to learn Dutch - a real eye-opener, it's a pig of a language to learn compared to French and German.

nailak Fri 21-Dec-12 16:47:23

in south africa they criticise immigrants, not people whose families have been settled for generations in the country and are of a different race. That is the difference.

alemci Fri 21-Dec-12 15:51:00

A bit wobbly I think you sum up things very well in your post. That would be my take on the situation.

I think though the indigenous population of the UK has been made to feel that they cannot criticise immigrants and they are threatened with the race card if they offer any objections.

This causes resentment and makes people fed up. Mostly the British people are tolerant and would not wish any harm to anyone on an individual basis but they may feel that they are being ridden over roughshod and that the people coming may try and impose their way of life on them. I think that is the underlying fear.

nailak Fri 21-Dec-12 14:33:23

from my point of view, there are anglo indians, such as my half sisters step dad, and many african countries have large arab, white and asian populations which are seen as part of the country and belonging, south africa has cape Malays which no one disputes are south African and asians that no one disputes are south African even though there is a popular worry about immigration, they are more worried about Nigerians.

BegoniaBampot Fri 21-Dec-12 12:31:03

Nailak - did you ask me why say a white British person will never belong in places like China or Thailand even if they lived there or we're born there and considered Chinese or Thai? Because the local people will never accept us or really want us there. You would always be foreign, not one of them. I guess until they have a huge influx of 'others' coming to put down roots then they'll stay that way. The UK now has British, English, Scottish, welsh folk from every race and religion and they are seen be the majority to belong which is great. But I can understand that a lot of people don't like to see their country change and worry about it.

nailak Fri 21-Dec-12 09:47:23

"you stop being a guest, when you appreciate the institutions of Britain, how they came about, why they are important and why they work AND YOU SUPPORT THEM 100% OVER YOUR CULTURE OF ORIGIN"

but uk is my culture of origin?
i have nothing of african culture in me?
I grew up here in this culture and followed it, absorbed it, lived it.

So people who dont agree with the house of Lords or first past the post or whatever are guests then? and there bishops in the house of Lords? if you dont agree with this are you a guest for not agreeing with the institutions or not a guest for believing in separation of church and state?

and those anti capitalist protesters camping in St Pauls were they all guests and not considered British enough?

DolomitesDonkey Fri 21-Dec-12 08:36:55

pointysetta I have travelled in the opposite direction as you wink - the government here used to provide official translations for some elements (e.g., tax office) in both English and German too. However, about 5 years ago they decided that if you wanted to live and work here, then you needed to speak Dutch. Fair enough. You also now need a "reasonable level" to claim bijstand.

If the whole EU were to fall apart I have no idea where you and I would end up...

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Fri 21-Dec-12 07:29:44

Sorry * clipped* I had my solicitor head on!

EU citizens (and their dependents) don't generally need visas. There are other names for their documentation. They do not need to show they can speak English.

People coming from other countries who need visas... In most cases visas require that they can demonstrate the applicant can speak and understand a certain level of English.

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