to be shocked that less than half of people in London are white

(412 Posts)
Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 18:11:13

I was reading the article below and was shocked to see how much this country especially London has changed over the last ten years and feel concerned that immigration is too high for what is an already overcrowded island especially in the south east!

www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/dec/11/census-2011-religion-race-education?intcmp=239

Spero Fri 14-Dec-12 08:05:20

Just heard very interesting interview with Sadiq Khan on the Today programme about Labour's one nation integration policy. It is interesting, if unnerving to find that for once I am entirely in agreement with the Labour party. The issue of racial segregation in primary schools is particularly worrying: if this were imposed by the State we would be world pariahs.

So if I am a racist, at least the Labour Party are keeping me company.

Spero Fri 14-Dec-12 00:06:42

I am really confused about where Clacton is now, but I am not going to spoil the mystery by googling. I shall imagine it as my safe haven when I am old and doddery and turn into a complete racist, like my dear old dad.

Santandme - yes, I cannot think of a single African client who has needed an interpreter in a family court, it is mainly people from India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghnistan. We have big problems because there is a very limited pool of Farsi interpreters and many are known to the communities and parties sometimes object because they say Mr so and so is a good friend of the other side. It can be a nightmare.

I agree with MrsDeV - I don't see how you can fight for your child if you can't speak English, and some children need fighting for.

There used to be free language classes in Lambeth but I am guessing that those will have been one of the first things to go in the austerity measures.

Santaandme Thu 13-Dec-12 23:35:30

"There are many people in the UK who arrived clandestinely, of whom UKBA are unaware. They are not subject to English language testing. " This is true spero but I was specifically addressing the wrong assertion by sweetkitty in alluding that Nigerian kids struggle at school as English is not their first language which is not true. Even for those who came here by clandestine means as you put it can speak English.

Nigeria is a former British colony and English is the most widely spoken language there.

motherinferior Thu 13-Dec-12 22:16:14

Agree with MrsDV about language. Totally.

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 18:19:09

spero I feel pretty strongly about the language issue. I work with children with complex needs. It is impossible for the parents to negotiate the social and medical services with a poor grasp of English.

Trying to explain medical issues, genetics, therapy, appointments etc is incredibly frustrating for HCP and other professionals when there is no adult in the family fluent in English.
Interpreters are not the answer. Interpreting services are often poor and not objective. Using relatives is not satisfactory and using children is obscene IMO.

Mothers particularly become isloated and depressed and vulnerable to influences from family and community. The influences are not always bad by any means but when they are they can be fucking catastrophic.

proofreader Thu 13-Dec-12 18:13:15

full of asylum seekers too.

FellatioNelson Thu 13-Dec-12 18:12:11

Clacton is crammed to the gills with working class people from Romford and Ilford and Dagenham, who have never quite got over the shock of having black people and Asians arriving in 1970. grin They are your classic 'white flight'.

SantasBigBaubles Thu 13-Dec-12 17:57:36

it's abroad- in east angular

proofreader Thu 13-Dec-12 17:56:39

I am not sure where Clacton is but suspect near Essex - whaaaat??
you don't know the famous song 'The last train to clacton'?

FellatioNelson Thu 13-Dec-12 17:53:57

Hahaha - so true about Clacton!

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 17:42:56

Good. Glad that is all cleared up. I am not sure where Clacton is but suspect near Essex.

I don't think integration is about one culture subsuming another, which is presumably what racists who want integration want. I think your culture and language of origin are very important to your sense of identity and add another dimension of interest to your life.

What I mean by integration is learning the language and respecting the legal and societal norms of your country of choice, as opposed to your country of origin. Which in this country I think would have to include commitment not to discriminate on grounds of race, gender, religion or sexual orientation.

With that in mind, I don't see how for eg inviting sharia courts to play a greater role (as Rowan Williams argued) is a happy idea. I think that quite understandably causes a lot of people anxiety, and that is another example of the negative consequences of increased immigration.

SantasBigBaubles Thu 13-Dec-12 16:22:54

<<we'ed myself a bit at Clacton refugee>>

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 16:14:57

No. I am not suggesting you are a Clacton refugee.

It was a separate point. You made several in your post. I made several in mine.

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 14:03:29

I can only speak from my experience of seeing people massively disadvantaged and cut off because they can't speak English. In family cases,i have represented many wives (and some husbands) who have come over from Indian or Pakistan to marry people in UK. When marriage breaks down they are even more isolated and vulnerable. People struggle in court, interpreters either don't turn up or are rubbish, cases can't proceed.

I thnk that all who wish to settle here should have some degree of competencein speaking English, this should be the expectation. I really strongly disagree this is paternalistic or patronising.

EldritchCleavage Thu 13-Dec-12 13:30:24

Disclaimer: the following comment is not aimed at any particular poster:

What I find interesting is how people talk about integration nowadays. It has become a stick to beat many immigrants with-you don't want to integrate. Yet when post-war immigration started, 'integration' was precisely what many many white people objected to. They were horrified at the idea of integration and determined not to do it. A lot of the separateness people now find so threatening has developed from that time. How is it that white racism has disappeared as a factor when people discuss integration, and only immigrant intransigence is mentioned?

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 12:58:19

Sorry, I thought I had made it very clear I was responding to your particular comment that you could see nothing that wasn't amazing about London. I simply set out a number of things that are far from amazing. One was crime, the other was the insane overcrowding in public transport. It was probably the latter that had most impact on driving me out - crime happened every now and then but the sheer hell of tubes and buses was every working day and it was making me very unhappy.

I am glad you don't go in for insinuations, but I am rather struck by your last point which reads to me as if you are suggesting I am one of the Clacton refugees! I have moved to another city - Bristol - which still retains some diversity and buzz but let's me live in a house only a mile from the main station and my office. I could never dreamed of achieving that in London.

So I just don't accept that all those who 'bang on' about integration are doing it behind their net curtains in all white areas.

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 12:49:30

I would have thought it clear that I don't go in for insinuating spero.

If I think someone is a racist I will tell them. Same as I would stand up to anyone calling me a racist to force me to back off.

Anyway I would be more likely to say 'that comment sounded racist' or 'I think you should think about why you look at things that way' instead of screaming racist at anyone who doesn't agree with me.

Because the most important thing to me is that those who are currently unable to challenge their perceptions, learn to do so.

If I can't get them to do that I will leave them to it but I reserve the right to think they are racist if they express racist views.

I genuinely do not see the connection with your fear of crime and this thread. You have said yourself that it wasn't about the black people etc. Immigration and lack of integration doesn't cause street crime. Poverty, lack of education and opportunity and lack of guidance cause street crime.

I happen to be of the opinion that people really SHOULD learn English as soon as they can. I think it appalling that many don't. It causes all kinds of issues for families if the parents cant. I hate to see children used as interpreters and women isolated. It is frustrating for professionals and can be dangerous for the families.

Not racist because I do not expect them to wipe out their own background and language in favour of mine.
I want them to be able to participate fully and yes, I do think integration is very important.

But it always strikes me as ironic that those who bang on about the lack of integration are the very ones who move out to Clacton to get away from the darkies confused

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 10:44:57

Sorry MrsDev, I thought the insinuation in your post was quite clear - only a racist would bring up fear of crime in London in a thread that talked about colours of skin. If I got the wrong end of the stick, I am sorry and glad you are not accusing me of racism.

But I haven't noticed much hysteria on this thread.

Like I say, I loved London and was heartbroken to leave. I spent nearly all my adult life there from college when i was 19. But it doesn't make me racist or hysterical to say I wouldn't go back unless I could afford to house myself and my daughter somewhere where she didn't have to witness drug deals and people falling over drunk on the way to school.

Not do I think I am racist to say I am worried about the implications of large groups of people living parallel lives to each other, with no or very little integration and huge differences in terms of for eg attitudes to woman. And that is the downside to the mass influx of people that certainly London has seen in last decade. It is nothing like the Jews or the Hugenots. This is global movement on an unprecedented scale and I think our politicians have mostly sleep walked into a potentially dangerous situation.

If you don't age with me, fine. But if you want to explain why I am wrong, you will get no where simply calling me a racist - I will just think you a fool. And that is a general 'you' not directed at anyone in particular.

NumericalMum Thu 13-Dec-12 09:11:47

I live in quite a "dodgy" part of SE London. I have never seen the sort of things being referred to here? My neighbours come from all ethnic backgrounds and cultures. I have had my car burgled and house burgled, both times living in a naice part of town!

On the train today from SE London almost the entire train carriage was white! How does that work OP?

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 08:52:28

Spero I deliberately did NOT call you a racist, closet or otherwise. So much for people being afraid of being called a racist. What about those of us who are being accused of calling others racist FFs?

You bought up crime and being scared. I am not going to second guess your motives.
Your other point is equally ridiculous. Me responding to others not liking London is hardly me being incredulous that other people would want to live elsewhere.

I like it. I am sure others don't but how should I respond to others telling me I shouldn't like it either?

I have not posted in here telling people they are stupid to not like London. I have objected to being told I must be rich or deluded to disagree with them.

Please do not try and shut me down with your accusations. It's annoying. The only person I have called racist on this thread is nick griffin. I am sick of the hysteria on this thread.

Mimishimi Thu 13-Dec-12 08:18:04

YABU to be shocked. It's not like it's a particularly sudden development. It's just now in the face of those who cheered it on and they hope that those pushed out by it come back to save the day ;)

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 08:15:37

Mrsdevere - you seemed amazed tha someone could find London anything other than amazing. That annoyed me has I have plenty of reasons as to why it wasn't amazing.

But nice to see your suggestion that this makes me a closet racist. I have no idea the colour of the people who broke into my car as I didn't see them. But the group of workmen who helped me get the broken glass off my daughters car seat were a mix of black and white and I was very grateful to them all.

Yes the crack dealers seemed to be mostly black and their clients mostly white men in suits.

What I see with my eyes does not make me racist. It is the interpretations I put on what I see.

I am pissed off that allegations of racism appear to be made to shut down other people's arguments.

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 07:53:56

I don't expect everybody to agree with me.
I get pissed off when people assert you have to be rich or deluded to like being in London.

I wouldn't start talking about crime and being scared out of the blue on a thread about non whites. Not due to the fear of offending or because I am pc gone mad. It just wouldn't pop into my head.

But then my four boys are non white and will have to grow up dealing with people making those connections. Young black men are probably engender more fear than the Zombie Apocalypse hmm

I have lived out of London as a child and I didn't like it much. I came back to London ASAP.

My family all live in delightful Devon but it does not appeal to me as a place to live.

Why shouldnt I want to stay in London cozy ? What will I find elsewhere that I can't find in London?

I would like to live by the sea but there is Brighton for that if I ever win the lottery.

Pantofino Wed 12-Dec-12 23:44:45

What doe that have to do with anything? I grew up in South East Kent, which 30 years ago had NO ethic minorities beyond the Indian or Chinese restaurant. And 20 years ago had a HUGE influx of Eastern Europeans who then were blamed for everything and every crime going, whether it was them or not.

Now I am an EU immigrant myself. My dd is at school - a local state school - with a huge range of children from different backgrounds and countries. It reflects the place where she lives and the time in which she lives. It is totally different from my school experience which was nice white C of E stuff. Even I get to learn and grow. Like not to just give Haribo on birthdays,....

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 23:43:50

Ive lived outside London.

I don't feel my family is accepted outside of London. In London people can just be that is one of the reasons why I love my hometown and will never leave other than to go on holiday.

<Im not rich either not do I live in a 'fashionable' part of London>

jjuice, oh god yes, the Zebrugge one was deffo a troll/faker.

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