to be wavering on school choice?

[BrittaPerry]

OK...I am going to get flamed to hell...please be gentle...

DD1 is 5 and in reception, we also have a 2yo DD2.

I wanted to HE - I hated school with a passion for various reasons, not least because I couldn't cope socially in large groups. It didn't socialise me - it just made me miserable and more concious of my differences. I only learned to get on with other people my age in my late teens, out of school, and still can't really believe it when "normal" people are nice to me. There were also things with the education - going at the pace of 29 other kids just did not work out for me and I would get told off for reading ahead and asking off curriculum questions. It was noisy and had weird textures vnd I spent the entire time on a state of high alert because of people doing things that I couldn't predict. I am far happier now I run a business and study at home :-)

In the end, though, I got seriously mentally ill and so had to reluctantly agree to send DD1 to school (I have no problem with nursery, childcare and so on - it is the full time school environment that I worry about, plus it gets in the way of a child's education and life so much)

I at least tried to put my foot down on choice of school - I didn't want the catholic one, mostly because I do not want my child to hear about some of the more dodgy aspects as she gets older from the same people teaching her facts. I have no issue with the school existing, or with people holding those views (as long as they keep them to themselves) but I am really uncomfortable with the idea of her hearing that sex etc is wrong. I am always being told that I am a hippy, but I try to give the kids picture books with all types of families, play games where the princess rescues the prince, talk about body image etc. That story about the schools handing out homophobic petitions made me sick.

But DH is convinced that the catholic school gives a somehow better education, so off she went (tbf, it was the only one with a place, but I would have held out with her at home) - when the decision was made, I was very very ill.

I must say, it is a lovely, lovely school. DD1 hasn't made any friends, we suspect she may have some kind of mild aspergers as her general social skills are awful - she is just so awkward and prefers reading, playing outside and doing science experiments. She gets really het up at things like metaphors - they annoy her intensely - but she adores horrible histories and any impressions involving hitting her own head She tends to have a hat pulled down over her eyes whenever she can and pulls her little faces with licking her lips snd so on as she goes around. She is lovely, and it is a joy to talk to her and see how her little mind works :)

The teacher says she is keeping an eye out, and that some strategies have been put in place - eg starting games that DD can join in, with a set task to aim for as a group, and asking her to read to her friends and so on.

Now DD1 is trying to make us pray at home, and thank God for her toys and so on, and gets annoyed when I say that not everyone believes in god and it is something that nobody can prove so you just have to think about it and never know the answer.

She is also having nightmares. She thinks that everyone is her friend, but none of them play with her (the teacher says that DD spends most of every playtime at the edge of the yard by herself, and most of every lesson in a corner reading or outside on the climbing frame, again by herself) and can't work out why. She is getting more and more stressed, having tantrums, getting more and more bothered about strange little things.

I don't even know what I want for her :( I just know that I am not happy and I don't think she is. Stick where she is, so she gets consistency? Move to the non catholic (but you never know what praying goes on) and less good ofsteded school? HE? Try to get flexi school? HE from now till september to give her a chance to build up her self esteem again?

[WorraLiberty]

It's a real tough one but I have to say, I wonder if you're massively projecting onto your children?

I didn't like school either but schools nowadays are totally different to the school I remember.

As for the praying and 'getting annoyed'...well kids get annoyed with their parents about all sorts of things if they don't agree with them.

I went to a Catholic school and they made it quite clear that no everyone believes in God or in the same religions.

She's only 5yrs old...perhaps you could try to chill out, let her settle in and keep an eye on her along with the staff?

Really, in terms of schooling she's only been there five minutes.

[WheresMrMonkey]

Totally agree with Worra, it is so easy to take on your parents worries..... Even the best parents cant completely stop it. Just try and be as positive as you can be about it, a little more time and encouragement may be all she needs

[HolyCameraConfusionBatman]

Is she happy at school? Is she keen to go in the mornings/after the holidays? If you asked her would she rather stay at home, what would she say?

Are you better now and able to HE? How does your DH feel about it?

Personally if she isn't keen to go I would take her out and HE, but that's because I'm very keen on HE when they're very young (3,4,5,6). I do think you need to commit to it though. It would be more harmful to take her out of school, HE for a term find that doesn't work and the put her back into school than it would be to just leave her there.

[BrittaPerry]

She isn't keen in the mornings, but then she isn't keen on anything in the mornings - she is usually still trying to pull the covers back over her head when I could be seeing what she thinks of school.

Holidays she likes, although she does fret about going back to school - we write it on a calender for her, to stop her worrying.

[TheHouseOnTheCorner]

Gah she sounds like my 7 year old DD and YOU sound like me!

My DD has improved a lot actually as she's grown older....she recently moved from a small private prep into a lovely state school which has helped enormously...though it was hard at first.

She is slowly making friends...Brownies has helped...as has cycling a lot! Have you asked any children to come home for tea? Or looked into Rainbows?

I was and am like you in that I struggled massively at school due to being uninspired by the work and hating the noise and the lights and the roughness of the other DC.

I also work from home!

I also looked into HE and stll consider it at times.

Funny that!

[WorraLiberty]

I just want to ask (and this is a totally genuine question)

Why you wanted to Home Ed your DD because you didn't like school?

Surely you must understand that not everyone/every situation is the same?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have looked into it but I'm wondering why you did it because of your experience.

Surely you must know people in your family/circle of friends/colleagues who had positive experiences at school, despite the fact you didn't?

[BrittaPerry]

Good question Worra, one I have asked myself loads of times.

I don't know, in short.

It just seems odd to me to send a child to spend so much time in a room with a crowd of other kids of almost exactly the same age. Then they follow a scheme of work that takes no account of what is going on in the child's life or what their interests are. I know that I have better resources at home, I know that I can take them out on trips several times a week instead of once a term - within half an hour on public transport we have some amazing free museums and so on.

I know a few teachers - some of which are amazing people, who astound me with their dedication. Some openly admit that they don't like reading books, don't have really basic general knowledge and don't even like other people's children. I could never be a teacher, I would never be able to deal with 30 children and give them any quality of education. Which is why I am not doing a teaching degree. DD1s teacher is a brilliant teacher btw.

I just see DD pottering about at home, acting out greek myths, reading books about how digestion works, looking at bugs and leaves in her microscope, writing our rules for her own country (the main one was that nobody could tell her what to do :) ) colouring in maps of ancient Rome, writing down number patterns that she has worked out using her buttons box, dressing up, riding her scooter, making her little inventions, giving us her commentary on the news (which is hilarious), doing (borderline cruel) experiments on the baby, helping with cooking, shopping for and growing food, and I think that she is perfectly happy, and is learning well, here.

She does Rainbows and she is asking to do ballet and football, and we go across the country to see various members of my family regularly. I try to encourage her to play with children in the street, but she just stares at them. :(

It is less of a negative than a positive choice really. DH is against HE though :(

[WorraLiberty]

It just seems odd to me to send a child to spend so much time in a room with a crowd of other kids of almost exactly the same age. Then they follow a scheme of work that takes no account of what is going on in the child's life or what their interests are. I know that I have better resources at home, I know that I can take them out on trips several times a week instead of once a term - within half an hour on public transport we have some amazing free museums and so on.

Hmmm yeah point taken but.....the idea is for parents to work closely with their child and the school.

Parents take account of what's going in their children's lives and take them on weekend trips/after school trips/holiday trips etc...

The two are not supposed to conflict, they're supposed to compliment and provide the child with twice the support IYSWIM.

[BrittaPerry]

I'm not a mega attachment parent (although I do kind of do some of that, slinging and co sleeping and that as the fancy takes me and the kids) - DD1 has been on and off at nursery since she was four months old, and DD2 is at nursery four days a week. I like nursery, they both loved it, I like the break, but I just can't shae the feeling that school isn't right for DD1. She is old enough now to spend some time amusing herself, whereas DD2 is still very destructive - even me going to the toilet often means I come back to broken toys, random stuff in the bin etc. DD1 doesn't do that now.

I do have a nagging suspicion that I am maybe a bit helicopter, but then DD1 does spend a lot of time away from me. If I had a demanding job it would be one thing, but I study with the OU and do avon...it adds up to full time, but in a very flexible way that could easily accommodate a 5 year old.

I started off very involved with the school, but all the other involved mums know each other from church, so it was basically me sat off to one side doing the cutting and sticking while they made decisions and gossiped.

The main thing that makes me thin that school is the way forward is my mental health. I was hospitalised in the summer, and while I am now stable, I was also in and out of hospital three years ago, with a gap of being stable invbetween, so that risk is always there. I wouldn't want DD1 to have the trauma of her mum being ill as well as having to settle back into school. But then, anyone could get ill at any point, you can't plan your life around maybe getting ill at some point.

(my keyboard is broken, hence any spelling mistakes)

[BrittaPerry]

It is great to have a reasoned conversation about this, btw, thanks :)

[sunnydelight]

You don't only HE if things aren't good at school you know, a lot of people do it because they, like you seem to, feel like school is a bit of an unnatural social structure and they would prefer their children to be able to learn more in their own way. What you describe above sounds like a perfect example of a young, home schooled child's day. Have a look on the Education Otherwise website if you haven't already, I find some of the reading on the philosophy of HE very interesting. I did it for six months and really enjoyed it but it wasn't the right thing for my kids in the end. The best thing it taught me though is that there is always another option.

[marriedinwhite]

I don't see how going to school stops a parent taking a child on museum trips or from developing a child's interests in a particular thing further. Just because our dc followed the KS1 curriculum didn't mean they couldn't read Greek Myths, translate passages into runes, and learn to sing and play sports not available at school. They also had lots of time after school to bug hunt in the garden, exercise their imaginations and build the odd zoo in the living room. Remember too there are about 12-14 weeks holiday in each school year when you can ll do as you please, especially if you aren't tied down to a job.

The good things about school are: learning to be part of a community, making friends, listening to the views of other adults, in a church school finding out about religion in a very simply way and if one doesn't do this one can't decide whether one believes or wishes to believe later. It's about learning to take account of others and what makes them tick rather than only focusing on one's self. It's about finding mechanisms to help one to fit in later as one's whole begins to develop and about learning to be receptive to how other people behave. Finding out about and learning and being helped with socialisation techniques.

Ultimately and most importantly a school, where there are trained professionals, can also identify problems a child has - sometimes with learning, sometimes with behaviour, sometimes because they have an SEN and the school can then ensure there are plans in place, together with the parent, to help the child develop, to maximise his or her potential and to ensure the chld get all the support he or she needs to be able to function as well as possible within the framework society affords us. One might not like the framework but it is what we have to exist in.

I didn't like school either, largely because I found it rough and noisy on occasion. It also opened a world to me of numbers and literature and nature and to this day I remember picking up a book and the sounds and letters clicking and thinking wow, I can read.

I hope you are getting the support you need OP. If you stay well and are there for your dc after school then that is the biggest gift you can give them.

[DeWe]

OP you don't sound dissimilar to me.

The difference though is I know I would have been dreadful if I'd been HE. I'd never have chosen to socialise, so I'd never have learnt to socialise.

I'm still not very sociable, but I can do it if I have to, and I am comfortable with myself, I don't think if I'd been withdrawn from groups of children I would have achieved that.

At infant age, to the children, the teacher's word is law. They are correct even when you have the actual answer in front of you.

With my experiences with my dc, most children don't have best friends in reception that last. They may have A as their best friend today and B tomorrow. It tended to be end of year 1 to year 2 they started making more exclusive friendships.

You do sound like you're projecting onto her a lot. You're assuming she's unhappy, but at that age I wasn't even aware that others had best friends etc. I was quite happy wandering round the playground having my own game.

I remember realising in year 2 that the other girls had separated into pairs and threes and I wasn't one of them. Actually at that time I wasn't bothered. Sounds strange, but I wasn't ready to have a best friend relationship. I think I was top end of juniors when I started wishing I had.

[BrittaPerry]

Do you all think that the "social" aspect of school is tied up in the education? I'm thinking that maybe she could do something like an afterschool club or childminder, and that, added in with HE groups twice a week, rainbows, ballet, football, maybe karate or something and a musical instrument and/or drama would give her lots of interaction, but more on her own terms, iyswim.

But then I could be missing the point entirely.

I wouldn't send her to all that on top of school, as she gets overwhelmed and tired as it is, but without school it could be fine.

DH also wants her to do Latin (the main reason he still insists that catholic schools are best ) so we would have to find a tutor for that, and I would like it if she could do a modern language too, and a science club of some kind, but they are for in the future.

We can cover numeracy, literacy, primary science, history, geography, citizenship, etc at home quite easily (we already use some HE resources on an informal basis anyway, and have a four bedroom house where two of the rooms are a playroom designed around educational principles and a library, and then the front room has child height tables and chairs, worksheets and workbooks, art materials, books, basic science equipment and numeracy/literacy based toys that are made for schools available for both children to choose from whenever they like - yes I am very pushy, but they don't get actually pushed towards tasks, they are just available and of course kids are curious and love a challenge so they choose. Then of course we do singing, watch horrible histories, talk about the news, take them on political events and so on)

Good point about being able to take her to museums etc at the weekend, but they are so busy. I miss the days of wandering round and looking at everything, properly investigating each thing, and looking stunned at the huge groups of noisy school kids being herded around. DD1 is starting to talk about homework as a chore :(

The SEN thing does make me pause, because, like I mentioned, I have my suspicions about aspergers. But then aren't the assessments done through educational psychologists anyway? I'm no expert by any measure, but I do proof read reports for my sister (who assesses kids for dyslexia type problems in a very large school) and, while it does seem very specialised, the actual interventions are mostly done by the TA, with some very intensive stuff with my sister - does anyone know how this works regarding autistic type difficulties?

I'm leaning towards keeping her in the school, but maybe withdrawing her for a term or so, or even trying for flexi school (although apparently nobody in the whole of sunderland flexi schools) - I really like the school, apart from the religion aspect, it just seems so demanding of her time.

[deliataughtme]

I think the social aspect of school is tied up in "life". I think to stop her going to school stops her engaging with life and what everyone else does. Not every school is right for every child but there is a school for every child.

You say you like the school but not the religious aspect. Well, life is a compromise and it is a skill she needs to learn. I don't like the fact that my daughter's school has a royal blue and canary yellow uniform but like enough other things about the school not to let it bug me. I don't like the fact that my son's school is tough academically and socially and is very hard on the non alpha boys or boys who are struggling a bit. Sometimes it makes me cringe but our son has loved it from the day he went and loved the cage (dreaded by the gentle souls) from day one. Therefore I smooth over the bits I don't like and am glad for bits I do like - like the classics, the music department, the fab sports facilities and some fantastic teachers.

[diddl]

OP-what did you do with your daughter before school?

Toddler groups or anything?

Has she learnt how to socialise with her peers through you?

[titchy]

HUGE DISCLAIMER - I KNOW NEITHER YOU NOR YOUR DD....

Do you think you may have some Aspergers traits yourself? You seem very pigein-holed in your view of school - its only function to you seems to be to educate, and you feel you could do a good job of that yourself.

But as others have said there is a huge other side to school, working as a ggroup, dealing with other people etc etc - things that you are not comfortable with, and which if you did HE her she wuold probably find difficult - it would be your cues she followed, not those of her peers.

However she does seem to have some Aspie traits - everything seems very black and white to her, and when the shades of grey happen she can't cope. Role play at home would work maybe, but obviously if you yourself have difficulties on this area this sort of intervention may be of limited use. Her teacher sounds on top of things though, which is good.

You and your dh should be together on this - and he clearly isn't and gets his won way (HIS choice of school, not yours) - and why is he fixated on a very academic schooling for her - Latin at 5?! Catholic primary schools do NOT teach Latin!!!! And plenty of non-Catholic secondaries do.....

I actually think flexi schooling might work - but I think she definately needs some outside interactions/intervention/socialising classes somehow as this is an area she is clearly finding difficult. And don't foregt she's your child too, not just your dh's!

[DeWe]

School isn't the only way for children to socialising, however, I'm talking about me as a child. I know that if my dp had taken me out of school then I really would not have socialised at all.

People talk about eg. Brownies. Great. Nice bunch of girls, surely friends can be made there? However the Brownie pack may well be made up of children who go to school together, which is a big difference between that and 90 minutes a week.
I think if you have a child who thrives/puts in a great effort etc. on social encounters then they may well make some good friends. However put someone like me in, who finds it hard to initiate friendships will just find that they feel always on the outside because they're talking about X's party from their class or the school disco etc. This reinforces the idea that you're always on the outside and maybe people don't like you, which makes it harder to approach others...

For example, my dd1 goes to ballet. She's done so since she was 2.6yo and she's now in year 6. She has varied betwen 2-3 lessons a week and she has some lovely friends there. However I can see that there is a difference between them and school friends. She's had a few parties from ballet over the years-but not many. She's never been invited round for tea/play, they don't phone up in the evenings...
Also my observation is that the children she has developped a friendship with are those who are outgoing, sociable children-ie those who have made the first approach. They also have only really developped as friends rather than "others who do ballet" in the last (about) 3 years.

[Floggingmolly]

Are you sure it's just the "praying" you have an issue with?
Your comment in the op it's full time school environment I worry about, plus it gets in the way of a child's education and life so much. That's a fairly bizarre viewpoint - sounds to me you are dead set on home schooling and just looking for validation for that choice. Why do you need it?

[BrittaPerry]

Diddl - we did playgroups and she went to nursery part time. She also spends a lot of time with various grandparents and aunties. She probably learned some of it through me, but she was at nursery part time from very young, and was always very timid with other children.

I quite possibly have some aspergers traits - a few family members have commented on it, but I am definitely the least aspergersy out of me, DH and DD...DH is almost textbook. So the poor child is a bit doomed genetically :)

We both manage to have public facing jobs though - sales etc don't need you to be actually confident with talking to people, because you just need to know enough patter and know your product well.

I suppose I am very dismissive of school for socialising - I didn't socialise there at all, I just hid and read, occasionally talk to the other children if I had to, but not much. My entire social life was out of school, especially with a ragtag group of kids we used to play in the street with, from all different schools and ages. I probably played most with my sister and cousins, which does worry me - my two have no cousins yet, and any that were born now would have a huge age gap to DD1.

DD1 is already showing signs of preferring the internet for socialising. It is mostly novelty value, but she will only talk on the phone if she has a piece of information to give or a question to ask, but will happily do her little slow typing on facebook chat.

FloggingMolly - I think I am a bit, but I doubt that I can persuade DH. I am really uneasy with indoctrinating kids though, especially given the latest spate of homophobia from churches.

Flexi school is looking like the best option from my point of view, but I doubt very much that I would get it past DH.

[mummytime]

Btw the only secondary around here whichdoesn't offer Latin is the Catholic one.

I do think you and your DH,need to talk more. You obviously want to HE,,he doesn't.

Your friends who are teachers soundnothinglike the ones I know, who all like kids, like to instill enthusiasm for a subject and love teaching (their feelings on the associated admin are less positive).

School is where you can learn the basics, out of school you can still follow your own interests, and enrich the learning.

[NarkedPuffin]

Have you ever thought that you might be on the autistic spectrum?

[NarkedPuffin]

I would talk to the school about having her formally assessed - it sounds like they're doing all the right things to try and help her ATM.

[thebody]

Well I know nothing about this but both u and your dd sound lovely people.

If she wants to do ballet, footi etc then she's not Hiding from the world but
Embracing it.

As regards school, she's 5, she's just started so u arnt giving her a chance to settle, the prayers thing is normal, most kids do it and then drop later, don't even worry about that.

I sense and am being as tactful as I can here that you quite like the idea of your dd not settling so u are vindicated in your belief that school is bad


I think u need to concentrate on your own needs, relax with dc and let her find her own way at school and see how things pan out in a while.

Incidentally all children play like your dd does, my 4 had massive Imaginations and played amaZing games and school didn't eradicate this it widened their horiZons.

Dd won't always be 5 and she does need to learn to live with others, she sounds fine to me.

[TheHouseOnTheCorner]

God. WHY does anyone with a slightly different personality HAVE to be "possibly Autistic" on Mumsnet??? It's a ridiculous thing to come out with on so little info.