To think I need to send the dog back to the breeder?

[bitingfairy]

I'm typing with tears in my eyes, so please don't be too harsh, but I need some advise and can't make my mind up if IABU.

We have a 21 month old Newfoundland bitch, who we've had since 8 weeks old. She's always been a handful, and not the typical Newfoundland calm and gentle temperament. We've worked very hard over the last nearly 2 years to train her, and spent a lot of money on a private behaviourist who helped a lot, but the situation has changed recently.

We have a 7 year old daughter who will not go anywhere near the dog because the dog cannot, and has never been able to, calm down around her. We've tried all sorts of things to fix this, but they don?t seem to work. The dog will behave for a short period of time, then goes back to jumping up. Obviously she's big and easily knocks over my DD, so they're never together unsupervised, and in fact, the house is full of dog gates so that they are rarely in the same room. The dog doesn't jump on me, but used to jump up at my DH and did not react well to any kind of reprimand or discipline - in fact she would put teeth on me - without pressure, but still. We took her back to the breeder for help earlier this year, who actually at one point advised us to put her to sleep as she had never seen a Newf like her and she wouldn't trust her ever, but she changed her mind and thought we might be able to tackle her problems with training. We hired a behaviourist who worked with us for several months and made an enormous difference. (Positive reinforcement - no negative techniques) The jumping up and mouthing improved enormously and we have been continuing to work on other training, but, unexpectedly (after thinking it was impossible after investigations for 2ndry infertility) I found myself naturally pregnant again 6 months ago and have been really unwell with hyperemesis since.

This has left me unable to continue with the level of intensive training we were doing and her behaviour has deteriorated again - not to how bad she was, but definitely worse. And tonight she's put teeth on me for the first time in months and left several 4-5 inch bruises on my arms which I've had to cover up to hide from DD. (This happened when I took her collar to pull her down from jumping up on DH - she'd already been told to get down several times)
AIBU to think that I really have no choice in taking her back and signing her over to the breeder at this point. I'm increasingly unable to manage as the constant vomiting has taken a toll on my health, and I'm getting a bigger bump by the day. I'm also worried about what will happen when baby arrives in January - at the moment we cope, but if she jumped up when I was carrying a baby or worse - it doesn?t bear thinking about. And I'm going to have even less time for intensive training with a newborn.
But part of me feels like a failure and that I'm abandoning my pet. Will she calm down over the next few months (big dogs mature more slowly) or am I just kidding myself? I don't think she's an aggressive dog (neither did the behaviourist), but she is very, very headstrong and excitable. At this point I think I've run out of energy after months and months of hard work and anguish with her, but really wanted to teach my DD that pets were a good, positive experience and this simply isn't in any way positive. I'm trying hard to think objectively but it's so hard.

AIBU or should I make arrangements to send her back to the breeder?

[annaesme]

Rather than taking her back to the breeder (who may put her to sleep rather than try and remodel her behaviour) why don't you contact Newfoundland Rescue. Then you know that she'd go to someone who would have her best interests at heart and may have more time and space to devote to her.
Sorry you've got to make this choice, it must be really hard.

[Rebeccash]

If you post in the doghouse section of pets I am sure you will get some good advice

[VivaLeBeaver]

I'm really sorry that this is happening. It does sound like you've done as much as you can and with a new baby on the way I can understand why you feel this way.

Do you think you could rehome her yourself rather than give her back to the breeder? It doesn't sound like the breeder is very keen to solve the problem if she was so quick to say pts before. Is there a specific Newfoundland rescue that could help?

[ib]

You poor thing.

I don't know Newfs particularly, but I had another large breed who was also very excitable initially, and became pg when he was about 8 mo, at which point I found him a bit of a handful - and the nausea and vomiting meant I didn't want anyone near me, let alone a big hairy dog.

Dh carried on with a lot of intensive training, but the good news is that he has now, at 24 mo, very suddenly matured completely and is much chiller and not at all excitable.

I can't say about your situation because of the way your dd feels about the dog - for us taking him back was quite simply not an option as ds1 loves him beyond reason, despite regularly getting knocked flat on his back by him over the last 2 years.

But I just wanted to offer a glimmer of hope that sometimes large dogs mature very much all of a sudden.

[lulamoo]

I'm so sorry to read your post and have tears rolling down my face. We had to have our dearest two year old cocker spaniel put down 6 years ago as he had been inter-bred and developed red rage syndrome. Like you, we tried everything, a trainer, a behaviourist, medication but nothing would stop his uncontrollable aggressive behaviour.

He took against my young SS and my DS was a baby at the time. We were scared of him. The vet advised that the kindest thing to was to put him to sleep. The walk to the vets was the hardest of my life and 6 years on we still miss him terribly. I still feel the guilt. My now 7 year old DS sleeps with Bertie's ashes next to his bed. Good luck x

[discobeaver]

She might calm down, but not in time for your new baby.

Very sensible suggestion of Newfie rescue, if you send her back to the breeder she will be put down no doubt. What will the breeder do otherwise, advertise an adult, excitable dog who has had to be sent back? Not likely.

I don't think you are being unreasonable to feel unable to cope any more, you've done loads already, but rescue might be your best option.

[MrsSnaplegs]

I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation and if you weren't pg would say persevere. She sounds like she is trying to be the alpha female and needs to get a little bit more mature before she settles. I have a large breed bit bitch who reacts differently when I am pg, she is better this time round as she is now older and neutered. Newfoundland rescue may be able to help - it may be worth asking if they have an experienced owner who would consider fostering her for 12 months - worth asking. Jan fennel has a good book called the dog listener - some people may not like her but I find her advice very good. Best of luck with whatever decision you make.

[Vallhalloween]

I'm a rescuer and agree entirely with annaesme. I can understand that you will struggle with your Newfie and that you may well be wise to let her go but she does NOT deserve to die and it sounds far too likely that this will happen if you return her to the breeder.

It's hard to judge without meeting the dog but from what you say she is far from a lost cause, especially at so young an age. A good rescue - and in this case, although I have much faith (and work alongside) many reputable general rescues, I really think a breed rescue with a good reputation for training/rehabilitation and a no kill policy is the best option.

I'm generally loathe to advise an owner to rehome as I often think (crossly!) that the buggers could and should be doing more before making that decision but you seem to have reached the end of the road in what you can do under difficult and unexpected circumstances.

If I can help at all, although I'm not acquainted with Newfie rescue I am sure that some of my contacts in dog rescue are and can advise and guide you, please pm me.

[oldenoughtowearpurple]

We had a dog we couldn't handle - entirely our own naivety and foolishness - and in the end had to have him rehomed. We rehomed him through the breed-specific rehoming group, who were wise and sympathetic, and they found and assessed a wonderful couple who already had an older bitch of the same breed and who were delighted to take him. He went off happy, they stayed in touch for a couple of years and we could see he had a fabulous life. I have no doubts and no regrets - it was a happy ending all round. So if you go that route think positively about it - it might work out very well indeed.

[orienteerer]

Here?

[SarahStratton]

I have a rescue dog from the breed specific rescue. They matched us up very carefully with this dog and he has blossomed since he has been with us. He hadn't been socialised and had been mistreated by the previous owners two older sons who were autistic (he is a very whiny dog and they were noise sensitive and couldn't cope with it, they used to hit him). The family are still in contact with us and come and visit regularly.

I've also had to send a dog back to it's breeder for similar reasons to you, but in our case the breeder assured me he would be rehomed and not put down.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by mouthing? Do you mean she's putting her jaws round your arm/hand gently? If so then I agree that Newfoundland rescue would be a great way to go.

All the best.

[bitingfairy]

Thanks everyone. Is a horrible descision and I've spent the night tossing and turning it over. I don't think the breeder would have her pts now - she was so surprised at her behaviour that was so different to breed characteristics, and said she seemed almost wild. She was actually unable to go through with pts last time, and worked with her for 10 days before we took her back. She lives on a big farm, with many dogs (newfs, Irish Wolfhounds and lots more) and is a very reputable breeder. We have a contract saying she has to go back if we can't keep her anymore. Obviously we'd discuss it with her and talk about what would happen.

I've just come downstairs and she was gorgeous and cuddly, but then jumped on my DH again when I left the room and we're back to square one. I don't trust her anymore.

It's hard to explain the mouthing - when she doesn't want to do something she puts her mouth on your arm - firm, but not enough to break skin. But she does grip quite tightly and when she does this often leaves quite nasty bruises.

Thank you again

[lucy101]

My father refused to have a dog rehomed/put down that was exhibiting behaviours like yours. There were lots of warning incidents (my sister and I were terrified of it) and each time he explained them away... until it finally attacked him seriously and caused a bad injury. It is painful but you are doing the right thing in removing it from your home.

[ditavonteesed]

hope I am not interferring here, from what you have told me before I do not think there is any way the breeder would pts, I also think I have never seen anyone work so hard to fix a problem, you have spent the last 2 years trying desperatly to get over this problem and with baby on the way and how ill you have been you have still been working on things. You did so much research before getting a dog to get the right dog for your family and she is just so not like her breed.

[Morloth]

I think you should give her back to the breeder. They are just so big that any sort of silly behaviour can be a danger with a newborn around? Not a chance I would take.

[catdoctor]

Things I'd say to my clients under similar circumstances;

Baby/children safety comes first, no matter what

Pets who behave 'oddly' may themselves be unhappy in the current set up for whatever reason, so seeking to rehome is not a failure but a way of making things right for family and pet; there is no guilt in this.

Rehoming/retraining requires significant dedication and not all rehoming options are equal - may be case of out of the frying pan, into the fire.Walking away from your pet, thinking - have I left her with the right person? can lead to major long term guilt.

Euthanasia, should it come to it,is not a failure; sometimes the release is best for all concerned.No euthanasia policies MAY lead to poor outcomes.