The boat race and equality

[businesshoursareover]

What's your opinion on this?

www.bbc.com/sport/0/rowing/32130222

How is it equality if women are still not allowed to race together with the men or, even better, take part in the men's team trials and get rid of gender segregation all together by having a single race for everyone?

Keeping them separated and having the women's race first as some sort of ''appetizer'' before the men take part in the ''main event'' only helps encourage the stereotype that women are inferior at sports and how they're just ''for the boys''.

[PerspicaciaTick]

I believe that women have coxed in the Boat Race before, because the skills required for coxing do not place women at a disadvantage. I'm not sure that an entirely equal competition for the 8 rowing seats in a boat would lead to any women being selected. The rowers are big, usually well over 6ft and around 14 stone, so they have the reach and power. So the net effect of allowing men and women to compete for seats on a "mixed" boat would probably just end up without any women participating.

[Rosa]

There was a female Oxford Cox once I believe.. Plus I disagree - the womans race was before hand would you prefer it afterwards?
There are mixed team races but not at all levels - to me its pretty equal.

[iwouldgoouttonight]

I think is ok to have male and female teams because as PP said, men are likely to be bigger, possibly stronger, so I guess it's like other sports when it's divided into weight categories, etc.

I don't like that fact that women's events are always seen as a 'warm up' with the mens as the 'main event' like you said. It annoys me about Wimbledon too.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Practically speaking, if it was on second, fewer people would stick around to watch it.

I want that attitude to change but at least this is start.

[businesshoursareover]

But what about having them compete in the same race and not keep them as a side act?

[thedancingbear]

As well as the main crews there are mens' and womens' lightweight crews, in which the total weight of the crews are not allowed to exceed a certain amount. The lightweight races don't get the same public exposure as the 'main' races, but among rowing circles they're seen as almost as important. Often, the most technically capable and pound-for-pound strongest rowers end up in the lightweight crews.

When I used to row, there were a fair few women who would definitely have got a place in the lightweight boats on merit. But do feminists really want the womens' crews to be second-best options for those who can't get in the 'mixed' boats?

Regarding whether the women's race happens before or after the men's, I think some people will find a way of knocking either decision.

[YonicScrewdriver]

If the women's sport gets the investment of the men's for 100 years. I'll think about mixed boats.

Or it would have to be mandated that there be equal numbers of men and women in the mixed boat.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Women are, technically, allowed to race in the men's boats (but not vice versa).

The thing is, you need a specific body type to row (or do most competitive sport really). If you're a bloke and under, say, 5'10, your chances of being a heavyweight rower are quite low really, unless you are exceptional.

There are plenty of men who are unable to row in that race, which is partly why there exists a lightweight race beforehand.

And if you are a woman of 6'3, like the Oxford stroke in this race, you will have trained mostly with women, so I don't know how easily you'd transfer. I have wondered about it, though. I would like to see it.

But, I agree with others. I really just want to see the women get the funding and support the men get (or rather, to have it fairly shared).

[thedancingbear]

Yonic, rowing's one of the few sports where the investment is roughly equal between men's and women's (or at least that's the definite impression I got from my involvement - I don't have figures)

[YonicScrewdriver]

Oh dear, OP, I am not sure you are here in good faith.

Thanks, bear, good to know. Has that always been so?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

thedancing - I believe that the reason the Cambridge women's boat was called 'Project Ely' is because the women's team are trying to get facilities to match what the men have had for years. They did make a point on the programme that Oxford's women's team have much more by way of support/facilities.

[businesshoursareover]

Yonic,

The average boat race male rower is 6'3'' and 14 st. The average female rower is 5'9.5'' and 11st 5lb. This is not even going into muscle mass %, endurance, upper body strength etc. No amount of investment or time can change that.

[LooksLikeImStuckHere]

Whilst I agree that women are generally sidelined in the sport, lots of progress has been made in the past 20 years. Some of the women

Additionally, they are sidelined in the same way that the lightweight and skulling crews are in other regattas. The main event in rowing is the men's 8. It's the rowing equivalent of the 100m sprint at the Olympics.

Taking that as an example and using your argument, should we not also be questioning why women are not allowed to run alongside the men at the 100m final?

[Anniegetyourgun]

They said on the radio yesterday that men's and women's international rowing has had approximately equal support for some decades now, but within Oxford and Cambridge they didn't. Women had to fund their own training and facilities to the tune of some £2k pa in order to compete for the university. Which is a bit sad to say the least.

Yonic, having had a glance at the OP's offerings in Relationships I believe your doubts are justified. But I'm glad someone started the topic anyway.

[LooksLikeImStuckHere]

Sorry, didn't finish a sentence in that. Can't even remember what I was going to say either!

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Yes, but business, the average man isn't 6'3 either. I could see women getting into a mixed boat (and vice versa), but, as yonic says, it wouldn't be fair now given women have had so much less investment.

It's not equal investment now and certainly hasn't been. The women who'd rowed in the last few decades mentioned changing in the car park before training!

I loved what the Oxford coach said: 'there's been this bizarre notion that women aren't tough, and they can't cope with things that are long and require physical strength and endurance ... and that's what we're designed for'. I thought that was a really lovely point.

[businesshoursareover]

Not too long ago blacks were considered inferior to whites at sports. As soon as they were legally allowed to play or the talents scouts actually started looking for them they took over sports, especially in the US. Without needing 100 years of investment or the best training in the world. Check US basketball or football or european national teams where countries have a small % of population yet their national team is often 50% or more black or mixed race (such as England, France, Netherlands).


The most equal sport is probably tennis, both sexes can make tons from it. Yet if you know anything about the sport they are different planets. Try watching a men's game then a women's. As Murray said, he'd be surprised if a woman would break into the first 1000 men. And as Serena (probably the best female player of all time) said on the Letterman show she's happy to only play women because the men's game is so much better and if she played Andy she'd probably lose 0-6 0-6 in ''6 to 10 minutes''. I admire and honesty and modesty.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

business, I don't think that's really true in this context - there was only one black woman on either of the women's teams, and I bet rowing isn't the only sport like that.

I don't see how Williams was being 'modest' either - she was simply explaining how the game works.

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

Women would not get into a mixed boat. The odd woman - every 10 years or so - might get in. But it would not really be a mixed boat. It would be a men's boat. Yes - not all men are 6ft3 but according to my son's red book about 1% are 6ft3 plus. Don't know what proportion of women are from looking at my daughter's book.mbecause it is actually miles off the scale. The scale stops at 0.4% of women are over 5ft 11.

I was on the (women's) varsity team for a sport where women are physiologically less good than men. I might have been able to squeeze onto the men's 4th or 5th team (it's a non contact sport - I grew up playing against lads) but why would I want to. I worked hard enough and made the time sacrifices - pretty big during an Oxbridge degree - to be a Varsity Squad member and that is what I wished to be. We trained alongside the men and socialised with them. We celebrated our victories and commiserated our defeats equally. We did not see the men as superior to us and getting on the men's squad as the "holy grail". We had our own squad. I'm pretty sure they disn't see us as inferior. (Mainly because they were too busy trying to get off with us!)

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Oh, sure, mum. Not disagreeing - I was just musing as I'm curious about it.

I don't see the problem with what you describe, either (apart from the getting off with rowers. My problem there is envy. )

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

P.S As "dadoftwoyoungkids" was one of the men's varsity team I guess you could say that they were fairly successful at pulling us!

[Mumoftwoyoungkids]

I wasn't a rower. Or rather I was but only at College level.

(Although we also all socialised together and I got off with some of them too. And the coach )

[Yops]

Outside of the boat race, which I'd suggest has discrimination problems above and beyond just sexism, British rowing seems to treat men's and women's success equally seriously. There seems to be big investment at the elite level for both. Like the cycling team, I can think of as many famous women as men, and as many medals.

[businesshoursareover]

Jeanne,

That wasn't my point. Biology is holding women back in sports, not social influences. Blacks prevailed because they were better. Yonic seems to think 100 years of money and training would change millions of years of evolution. As for Serena, it is rare for a woman to blatantly admit men are far better than women at anything these days (the ''you go gurl '' generation) so her statement is somewhat surprising.

Mumoftwoyoungkids,

I agree, women are not inferior. Men and women are different beasts with different strengths and weaknesses. Is an apple inferior to an orange?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I don't see how you can think yonic is saying that.

Women are held back by social influences. That's pretty obvious - the discrepancies between the prestige of women's and men's sports was obvious at the Olympics, too.

To say that is not to negate biological difference, but to explain why it's irrelevant.