Mumsnet Talk

A barbaric ritual that serves no purpose other than control.

Bubbles I'd also question why it's in this section specifically, and not AIBU, where there is much more traffic.

Why here? Whiny MRA post from someone who wants to get feminists talking about cocks, that's why.

I think TeiTetua has probably hit the nail on the head.

Maybe OP wants to gauge opinion amongst feminists. I'm keeping an open mind, but would be interested in hearing from OP about the choice of FWR for this thread.

Personally, I'm against circumcision for non-medical reasons, due to the issue of informed consent.

HTH.

Feminism doesn't mean 'male issues as well as female' actually. The clue is in the name. However, from that post I am also suspicious of why you've posted in Feminism and prefaced with a 'not a whiny MRA' disclaimer so, as the Dragons say, I'm out.

I question your motives far starting this thread op. if you've been on mumsnet long enough you know the views of the majority. I don't know what you were expecting. Especially posting it in feminism.

Zippy, I'm genuinely curious about what it is that you want to talk about that you feel hasn't been addressed by the answers given in response to your question.

Perhaps you are looking for a space to discuss this issue because harm has been done to you. That being the case, I can see it might be difficult to begin and while, on the face of it, this mightn't be the most obvious place for a chap to go, I'm sure the posters here will be able to offer some support if you're willing to engage. I will certainly try.

I didn't say it wasn't an important issue. I said it wasn't a feminist issue. Which it isn't.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe that coming on spouting initials like MRA and then mouthing off is, on the balance of probabilities, someone worth engaging with. And this being the internet, I get to choose not to.

That's lovely, Zippy. Do you always react so angrily?

Without exception, we've all said we oppose male circumcision, but question your motives in posting it in this section. Which is fair.

"With that attitude you shouldn't expect men to give a shit about women's issues."

I don't.

Especially whiny MRA's.

IME very few men actually give a shit about women's issues. There are a few honourable exceptions and I love and fancy all of them (oh OK, maybe I don't fancy all of them, but I honour all of them), but they're few and far between and if you decided to go looking for them you'd have a long and tiring journey.

Women OTOH, care very much about men's issues and work tirelessly for men for no reward. Men take this as only their proper due and are so accustomed to it, that when a tiny number of women work for women's issues, some of them are utterly outraged by it and see it as an attack on men as a class - after all, women are supposed to focus all their energy and labour on men, not on themselves and each other.

FWIW

I strongly suspect that Zippy is utterly livid that he's come on here to complain about male circumcision expecting to be told that no-one cares about it and is taken aback and pissed off that these evil feminists agree with him, that male circumcision is crap and should stop.

It has contradicted his script of us, which is that we're awful man-haters and if only we could, we would cut the whole penis off the baby, never mind the foreskin. Afterwards, we would probably kill the baby and then eat it. Because we hate all males you see, including the babies we carried, gave birth to and nurtured with our milk.

We haven't conformed to his narrative. So now he's throwing his toys out of the pram.

This is men's rights activisim laydeez. This is how seriously we should take it. This is how much respect we should have for it.

He has not once acknowledged all the agreement he's had. He has not once acknowledged the analysis of why male circumcision exists - male violence, patriarchy FGS - it wasn't invented in a matriarchal society was it - he's ignored all that in favour of whining about the fact that TWO posters (one of them me, I hold my hand up to it) used the term whiney to describe MRA's (because using a negative adjective is OUTRAGEOUS) and quipped that it should stand for Misogynist Rapey Arseholes.

Two posts that he can take issue with in the midst of all this agreement.

If he's not here for a fight with feminists, then I'm a fucking banana. Or Ian Hislop, take yer pick.

Those would be patriarchal religions, yes.

Well, my two pennorth - my late husband was circumcised as a newborn in 1948; upper class, family (them, not me) Christian (though not strongly). The reason was because his father (RAF) was due to be stationed in the Middle East and was told it was advisable because of the climate and sand. Which, perhaps, is why the whole idea started in the first place. Unfortunately, they were not aware he was a haemophiliac.

"Pleasantly surprised?" So you haven't been on this site before? One of the issues that mumsnet is almost unanimous on is the unacceptability of non medically required infant circumcision. Or were you surprised that women were able to comment on an exclusively male issue without howling "but what about the womenz"? Well that's how intelligent thoughtful people behave.

Oh and of course men are welcome to post and comment. However, the record of MRA doing so is not good, and anyone posting with that particular agend must expect to be met with at the very least, wariness.

Feminism means gender equality so that would mean male issues as well as female? Please correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong. As AmandaPayne says, the clue is in the name.

In any event, male infant circumcision is not a "male issue" in the way that FGM is a women's issue. It's not women or matriarchal society or religion that are imposing circumcision on infant males. It is not carried out to curtail male sexuality nor to reinforce the oppressed position of men in society.

You may think that on an individual level it is just as bad for a man to be circumcised as for a woman to suffer FGM but that does not make it a "male issue" like FGM is a women's issue.

Oh, and feminism does not mean gender equality. Gender equality means gender equality.

Male circumcision = wrong on all levels
Female circumcision = wrong on all levels
MRAs = wrong on all levels

Feminism = freedom of women from oppression

HTH

Sorry, OP. Not what you wanted to hear? Maybe you should go back to your planet, do a bit more research and try again?

Male circumcision doesn't exist because of Judaism and other patriarchal religions, it exists because of patriarchy. They are part of patriarchy so they bought into it. There are loads of patriarchal cultures all over the world where boys are mutilated as part of their entry into manhood but they're not Jewish or Islamic or whatever, they're just patriarchal.

I don't believe for one moment that you were pleasantly surprised by our discussion, you probably thought we'd be just like whiney MRA's and whinge about "Wotaboutthewimminz?" I'm not surprised you find "Misogynist Rapey Arseholes" very provoking and uncalled for because of course men who buy into MRA shit would call it provoking to be called on their vile attitudes.

I use the word rapey about men who espouse attitudes and values which make them look as if they buy into rape culture. If men don't want me to use that term about them, they shouldn't say rapey things. MRA's say rapey things all the time. I can understand that rapey sexist men are unhappy about the existence of the word, because it names their attitudes and what their attitudes buy into, in a really raw, straightforward way.

As for misognyist and arseholes - well yeah, I believe MRA's to be both.

And so far, Mumsnet allows us to call groups we disagree with arseholes.

Although I'm sure the MRA's who frequent here are working on changing that...