OAP home allows residents to book sex workers

(262 Posts)
Charlezee Tue 29-Jan-13 01:43:27
JustAHolyFool Wed 30-Jan-13 22:43:52

Of course the dynamics are different, but it doesn't make sense to say that if you felt uncomfortable you would leave. Rapists aren't creepy weirdos who you can see a mile off. Very often rape happens once sex has started happening.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 30-Jan-13 22:46:59

As in, consent is withdrawn?

JustAHolyFool Wed 30-Jan-13 22:47:44

Yes

But there are sex workers who consider what they do as a kind of therapy and they themselves as healers. Probably quite a few in that category are doing this kind of thing (visiting clients in care homes). I fail to see why they shouldn't be paid for doing it - the art therapist, the music therapist and the counsellor expect to be paid for providing their services.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 30-Jan-13 22:56:56

Most men don't rape, and if consent is withdrawn, will stop. There is no reason a client/customer/punter would be any different.

About one in eight men use, or have used, the services of prostitutes. According to Dr Teela Sanders "Who are the men that buy sex?
•Across socio-economic groups
•Professional, managerial and manual jobs
•Full time employment
•Marital status: majority in long term partnerships (Gibbens & Silberman, 1960, Groom & Nandwani, 2006)
•No criminal record (Hester & Westmorland, 2004)
•Age – clients more likely to be over 39 years (Sullivan & Simon, 1998)
•Facts correspond with large scale surveys from USA (Monto, 2000).

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 30-Jan-13 22:58:38

You can read further in her book, Paying for Pleasure.

JustAHolyFool Wed 30-Jan-13 23:01:22

Right, OldLady, well if that's a risk you'd be willing to take, with a man who sees you as an object that he can buy you for sex, go right ahead.

Bowing out of this now, because I seriously can't see how people can be so blind.

Leithlurker Wed 30-Jan-13 23:02:31

Right there in your sentence "Why are women able to control their urges?" is the contradiction to your argument, and it's the same contradiction time and again brought forth in these stale arguments. Men afeel entitled to stick their cocks in women, or mens entitlement to sex. Ok so men have an entitlement to sex, show me where women and in particular modern women have not also sought to explore their sexuality. lady chaterlies lover, was that about a man or a woman having an extra marital affair? The number of women choosing not to marry in order to do as men once did, play the field encouraged by the knowledge that anything a male can do they should also be able to do. The number of older women left bereaved who go on to either have lovers or remarry. Yes women have urges and jolly well enjoy them, some a very small number engage in prostitution like activities and sex tourism.
None of this make prostitution right nort does it does it excuse the objectification of women or children, but what is does is highlight that humans will have sex, lots of sex. Sometime such as with prostitutes and extra marital affairs we can say that this is wrong. If though we are getting to the point of saying all sex must be between people who know each other and have some kind of relationship before and after the sex then its condem an aful lot of women as well as mean to celibacy.

What has it to do with my scenarios? Well if sex is free for consenting young un attached people with no moral or legal barriers what I am suggesting is that if the old people wanted to have the same free from moral and legal barriers would thinking about sex in the context still of a service but not one that is seen either to promote prostitution or entitled or immoral behaviour not be a better way to go.

badinage Wed 30-Jan-13 23:03:14

One More Chap yes we should stop homes where there are vulnerable adults allowing unvetted traders on the premises, or allowing any activity which compromises the wellbeing and feelings of safety of other residents.

SGB those people you mention are vetted before being allowing to trade. Even volunteers have to be vetted before they are allowed unsupervised access to vulnerable people.

I suspect the prostitutes who were allowed to trade in this care home were not.

MerryCouthyMows Wed 30-Jan-13 23:08:47

Of course it's a choice to sell sex. In the UK, you can claim benefits. It is not necessary to sell sex to feed your children. Yet, maybe when the harsher sanctioning regime for Universal Credit comes in, but that's not till later on in the year...

It is a choice that a Prostitute has made between accepting a lower standard of living surviving on benefits - tight but possible, or selling sex in order to procure a higher standard of living than benefits will allow.

It is NOT a choice between prostitution or starvation.

Yes, those prostitutes addicted to drugs are a different story, they are, IMO, having their vulnerability caused by their addiction taken advantage of, but as far as I can see it, if a non drug user, with full mental capacity wishes to sell sex in order to secure a higher standard of living than benefits would afford them, then that's their CHOICE.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Wed 30-Jan-13 23:09:25

As already pointed out, many women in committed relationships are raped by men they trust; those men view "their" women as property to be used and abused as they wish. Women in these relationships are often trapped by financial dependency on their abuser, they have dc with them, live with them, may even be employed by them in a "family business", where everything is in his name. It takes massive effort to break free, we see it all the time here on the relationships/divorce/lone parents and gawd knows how many other boards on the site.

OneHandFlapping Thu 31-Jan-13 06:16:17

It's either OK to buy a woman's body for sex, or it's not.

if it's not OK for an able-bodied man to pay for sex, then it's also not OK for someone who is old or disabled to pay for sex.

Personally I think sex is not a need for men, its something they want. They don't die if they don't get it.

Prostitution is always wrong.

"I mean, I'm horrified that people drink to excess... but since it's legal it's hard to make, say Aunt Maud, stop doing it in the privacy of her room, however I feel about it. "

Difference is your Aunt Maud is only affecting herself and her immediate family, not a generally vulnerable and exploited group of women.

And I'd be interested in any responses to the person who pointed out - if their mental capacity is such that they can't "help" but abuse the staff, are they really in a position to consent to sex?

"if it's not OK for an able-bodied man to pay for sex, then it's also not OK for someone who is old or disabled to pay for sex."

Good point OHF which is why, for me, this thread is about prostitution, whoever has the cash.

if their mental capacity is such that they can't "help" but abuse the staff, are they really in a position to consent to sex?

This. I've worked in old people's homes and have been abused by residents. I have been punched, kicked, spat at, sworn at, as well as being felt up, had men (and one woman) walk right up to me while masturbating ... it kind of goes with the territory and, while a good home will do whatever they can to lessen the risk, it's always there because for some people with Alziemers this behaviour is a symptom of the disease. Often, it's behaviour such as this that is the reason relatives can no longer cope with caring for the person at home.

It's not just their capacity to consent to sex that needs to be considered. It's their capacity to understand that they are paying for it. Chances are, paying for sex is something this person would never have considered doing before they got ill.

And then, are we really saying that it's OK to expect a prostitute to have sex with someone who cannot control their behaviour? Who cannot help being abusive? Sounds a bit risky to me. What do you think, OLKN? you seem to have it all worked out.

Moominsarehippos Thu 31-Jan-13 08:31:43

I'd be worried about some of the prostitutes taking advantage and wangling money and gifts from their 'clients'. I know one elderly chap who hired a (qualified, from a reputable agency) nurse to look after him when his wife died. She was a complete gold-digger and got a flat and uni tuition fees for her kids out of him before the family realised what was going on. As soon as they mentioned the word 'police' she was off like shit of a hot shovel.

WRT vetting of people allowed to visit care homes: unless the residents are officially listed as 'vulnerable' and unable to make responsible decisions, it's not up to the carehome staff to police their choice of visitors. They might want to see (and pay for the services of) mediums or aromatherapists or music teachers or religious representatives, who may be crooks or predators.

And it isn't inherently wrong to exchange sex for money. Sex is just another recreational activity that some people are more interested in than others. With any other recreational activity, whether you spend/earn money by doing it is seen as up to you.

GayleFartsAreLoud Thu 31-Jan-13 10:35:10

The same idiots pro prostitution are dominating this thread now. I refuse to read their trite comments and won't return to this thread.

It is a disgusting idea. No-one has the right to pay for sex!

And I'd be interested in any responses to the person who pointed out - if their mental capacity is such that they can't "help" but abuse the staff, are they really in a position to consent to sex?

Well I think that comment was aimed at something I said, which was in 10 years of working in nursing homes it wasn't the residents who were compos mentis who did the groping. ( although I'm sure this isn't always the case) so it's not always as easy to say care workers should not have to put up with sexual harassment and the resident should be asked to leave the home.

If someone lacks capacity they would not be paying for sex, for one thing they dont tend to have money on them. Its kept in a bank and a family member usually is in control of finances. also visitors are monitored, so someone else organising a prostitute Or sex therapist would be difficult.We had more cases of vulnerable adults having money/ possessions stolen than anything else. but there were two occasions where visitors were barred from patients rooms because we thought something of a sexual nature had occurred and the resident lacked capacity

And solid is right, if a resident is not vulnerable the care home has no right to tell them who can visit them or what they can do, as long as it's not illegal or infringing on the rights of other patients

Leithlurker Thu 31-Jan-13 11:58:13

That is exactly why your point GayleFarts about No one has the right to pay for sex always, always, always derails and shuts down discussion. Some here want to talk about having sex, elderly people, disabled people, single people, those left alone by the death of a partner, those left with obvious disfigurements through accident or violence that means they cannot just go out to a nightclub and have a ONS.

The trope about no one has the right to expect sex is where I think the issue lies, part of being human is wrapped up in sex and pleasure. Some can and do make a decision to abstain for a number of reasons. Others feel they are not fully human as they are not able to participate in that side os their life and the common experience of the majority of other human beings. So again let me ask if the act of having sex is so open and available to the majority sometimes in harmful and dangerous situations, why are we demanding that those with no option not be able to engage in safer and controlled ways that does not exploit any one. It can be done, the Netherlands and other countries' have made provision for sex surrogacy.

Leithlurker Thu 31-Jan-13 11:58:22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sessions_(film)

badinage Thu 31-Jan-13 12:26:22

I disagree that there's 'nothing wrong' with selling sex but the reason this is a feminist issue and presumably has been posted on this board is because the vast majority of people who feel entitled to buy sex are men. Prostitution merely reinforces patriarchical attitudes that men have a right to sex however they can attain it; either through assault or by purchasing it. Sex is not a 'right'.

The distinction in this case is that the care home workers procured prostitutes without reference to the other residents, the Council or to their procurement and safeguarding policies. Those policies are in place to protect all residents' rights and not just a minority of male residents who feel entitled to buy sex. Those policies apply to all other non-gendered trades such as hairdressing, chiropody, counselling or reflexology.

Are you by definition arguing that care homes and councils shouldn't have safeguarding and procurement policies for those trades either and that any pedlar selling their wares should be allowed unfettered access to care homes then? Because that is the logical extension of your argument.

fluffygal Thu 31-Jan-13 15:02:48

I don't agree with prostitution. But I have no right to stop an able bodied man from using prostitutes, and therefore have no right to stop a less abled man from doing so.

This debate is about whether WE have a right to stop people in care homes using prostitutes, not whether its their right to use them.

badinage Thu 31-Jan-13 15:44:50

Yes this thread is about a specific issue involving care workers procuring prostitutes for some men and overriding the safeguarding practices and policies that are in place to protect all of the residents' rights who are in their care. Society currently DOES exercise its right to stop people in care homes using prostitutes, through those policies - which quite rightly apply to ANYONE allowed unsupervised access to residents in a shared home.

That's why there's a bloody inquiry. They fucked up.

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