If anyone had told the young woman I was in the 70s what very little.......

(99 Posts)
seeker Mon 01-Oct-12 13:27:49

.......actual progress would have been made in changing attitudes to women in society by 2012, I think I would have jumped off the Forth Bridge.

ThisisaSignofthetimes Mon 01-Oct-12 18:21:09

Well not everyone can be chairwoman of ICI but it would be good if girls did have some aspirations for life. We don't help ourselves when there are so many young women who see their lives as fulfilled by hanging off a mans arm. As for those women who are in relationships where they don't know what their partners earn what pension provision there is etc.... I think that's partly because it's just easier not to have to deal with it all. Of course there will be some in abusive relationships where they will never be treated as an equal partner but that can't be more than a relatively small number.

NonnoMum Mon 01-Oct-12 18:21:27

And page 3 is STILL around????

messyisthenewtidy Mon 01-Oct-12 18:40:29

"my eyes are permanently set to roll."

YY! Sometimes I feel like my eyes will get stuck at the back of my head the amount of eye-rolling I do!!

messyisthenewtidy Mon 01-Oct-12 18:42:06

"And page 3 is STILL around????"

Yeah, but Nonno, it's all about choice doncha know?wink

Same old crap, just different arguments....

Xenia Mon 01-Oct-12 19:01:26

I've never had a problem witn page 3. More that too many women don't force their men to do more at home and more men don't do more at home. The day jmen aren't aroused by breasts the world will die out (unless we've stocked up on frozen sperm I suppose - in theory we only need a handful of men on the planet and could exterminate the rest if we were so inclined).

MissHuffy Mon 01-Oct-12 19:10:18

Don't tempt me, Xenia...

MissHuffy Mon 01-Oct-12 19:13:59

More seriously, the most depressing thing is how many women still collude with it all; how nervous they are about changing things. Reading MN can be very depressing at times.

Levantine Mon 01-Oct-12 19:17:55

I quite agree and I don't think you really realise what an issue it is until you have children. I didn't anyway.

All of my friends have taken massive hits to their careers. I have friends who are SAHMs who will spend the minimum possible as they see the money coming in as their DH's. It really depresses me.

frankie4 Mon 01-Oct-12 19:26:14

I feel that attitudes to whether women work or not is only one part of the issue. And I do think that men are doing more to help women at home now, and happy for them to work outside the home. I have many stong willed friends who don't have careers and are married to well paid men. I guess they are dependent on the man for money and he is dependent on them to run the house and look after the children. If the marriage breaks down then they will obviously have problems financially, but with education and degrees I am sure they would be ok, even if not wealthy.

For me the main issue is how women are still portrayed as sexual beings, only there for their looks. And violence against women is still rife. So many so called role models for girls, like Tulisa and Rhianna, have been in abusive relationships. We still see an older man in a suit presenting TV programmes standing next to a young thin girl with big boobs and in skimpy clothes. pornography is everywhere on the internet, and will change the way teenagers view women. Most men think that prostitutes and women in porn are willing participants, but don't realise that these women are not different to the abused young girls from the news, just a bit older.

Levantine Mon 01-Oct-12 19:38:37

It's more fundamental than that though isn't it - there's still a lot of "a person walks into the room" and "a woman walks into the room"

I really notice that reading my dc's story books, if there is an animal/toy/some other creature at the centre of the story it will nearly always be male, because that is the default characteristic of someone/something doing something interesting.

on the 8th June 1913 a horse ran over Emily Davison. Nearly 100 year slater, horses still cant vote, what an absolute travesty

on the 8th June 1913 a horse ran over Emily Davison. Nearly 100 year slater, horses still cant vote, what an absolute travesty

MamaMary Mon 01-Oct-12 19:44:26

I agree that the development and growth of the porn industry has been a huge setback for feminism, and for women generally.

I think we have greater maternity rights and rights at work, which is good.

We're being very western-centric though. Globally, the plight of women remains largely unchanged. sad

margerykemp Mon 01-Oct-12 21:22:45

I think things are much worse for women especially girls/young women than in the late 80s 90s and early 00s.

There doesnt seem to be any hope of a better way sad

kim147 Mon 01-Oct-12 21:33:34

One thing I noticed yesterday. It was from the Labour conference and there was a male reporter about 50 and - without sounding horrible, he was not well presented and a bit ugly. I know that sounds awful - but he was on TV and was doing his job well.

Would they allow a plain or even "ugly" woman to be such a reporter? At any age?

And the BBC also has this policy that its female presenters on the News must wear dresses or skirts. Ever seen them wear trousers. Just policing of appearance.

I do think the 70s was very external - who controlled the money, getting a mortgage, maternity leave etc. But now it's everywhere and in your face - but not unfortunately recognised as an issue. You try and bring it up elsewhere and you get laughed at.

TeiTetua Mon 01-Oct-12 21:41:24

Rihanna was involved in a violent relationship, which is bad. But she also gives sexualized musical performances, and that's bad too. In fact domestic violence has always been around, and at least now it's talked about and there's general disapproval of it, so that's progress. But stuff that some female artistes (meaning those who claim to be serious, not strippers) do on stage has got much, much worse. And the protest from the public isn't exactly deafening.

Kim in some respects I think the 70s was external, but in other ways it was more equal in 'all the little things' too. Kids wore bright coloured (or brown) cord dungarees, and played with lego. There were no disney 'girls are princesses who need saving!' or pixar 'boys are buddies and heroes!' films, and their associated branded clothing, toys, bedding, wallpaper, cups, plates, blah blah to infinity and beyond. There was "Free To Be You And Me" and people made an effort to produce 'right on!' stuff for children about equality.

I think I was raised (in my cousins' 70s hand-me-downs) in a much more unisex wardrobe than the clothes available for most children today. And we all know that the clothing you wear affects what you can do - running in heels or strappy sandals and climbing in skirts or frocks is much, much harder than in dungarees and trainers, for example.

FromEsme Mon 01-Oct-12 22:00:52

TeiTetua Sexualisation doesn't bother me, as long as it's not the only way for female singers to express themselves (which sadly it seems to be at the moment) and if males do it too (which they don't.)

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Mon 01-Oct-12 22:01:39

blackcurrants I agree entirely - I remember that most of my clothes (with the exception of 'best' or 'party' outfits - were practical and comfortable. And I barely wore pink.

kim147 Mon 01-Oct-12 22:08:35

It is interesting when you look back at photos of that time.

What the hell happened to our society? Is it the explosion in media and visual images over the last 20 - 30 years?

Goldidi Mon 01-Oct-12 22:31:26

Most of my dds' clothes are practical and comfortable. Neither of them wear a lot of pink either, although dd2(age 2.5) seems to want to wear pink a fair bit while also choosing boys clothes for other times because they've got dinosaurs on.

I think I may be raising feminists, which is a very good thing. Dd1 has never ever bought into the whole 'pink is for girls' thing and resisted very strongly the peer pressure to like Bratz, High School Musical, Glee, Disney Princesses, ballet, horses, etc. She also has very high aspirations for her later life, she's debating between wanting to be a doctor, scientist or author - she's never felt limited in her career choices in the slightest. Then again, neither did I, it wasn't my gender that stopped me being a high flier, it was my innate laziness.

I do think people are right about it being internalised pressures that are most prevalent now. I desperately want to stay at home with my babies even though I have a decent career, and dp doesn't want to stay at home with them even though we would be better off financially if he did. Those are the internalised pressures coming into play in my household as we do seem to have been conditioned to want our gender-stereotyped roles. Not housework though, I don't do much, he does far more housework than I do because I am happy living as a slob

seeker Mon 01-Oct-12 22:44:40

I could describe every one of my dresses from when I was about 3. Because there were only two or three a year, and they were for best qnd parties. And I remember one pink one!

Goldidi Mon 01-Oct-12 22:48:37

So do I seeker. My clothes were mostly hand-me-downs from my brother though. My dds don't have that issue as their clothes are mostly hand-me-downs from their female cousins. I do give away the dresses to friends because my girls prefer comfort, give them leggings, tracksuits or jeans and they're happy.

tribpot Mon 01-Oct-12 22:58:37

frankie4 - I do think that men are doing more to help women at home now, and happy for them to work outside the home - I don't think you meant this to come across as it does to me, which is that men are doing women a favour by 'helping' them with their housework and graciously allowing them to work. Men don't control what we do. Housework is not our job.

I agree with Xenia's position that we should all be the chairman of ICI (we'd need a big chair) only insofar as you see on MN far, far too frequently women trapped in bad or abusive relationships because they have no money of their own in order to escape. I would guess elsewhere on the internet you could read more frequently of the reverse, men trapped in bad relationships because the other partner controls all the cash. We need a better solution to this problem, a genuine way of supporting choice. And this must be for both women and men. It is socially more acceptable for Yahoo to hire a pregnant CEO than it would be for a male CEO to take 2 years off to look after a child.

But the main battle I think we face now is to get the fact that there even is a battle recognised. I'm sure there are many who think the fact there are a few Flash adverts with men wiping up in them is evidence enough that this battle is won.

AbigailAdams Mon 01-Oct-12 23:03:11

I have noticed that girls today almost always have long hair or at least shoulder length. If I think back to my group of female friends at secondary school I would have said it was 50/50 short hair/long hair. There seems a lot more emphasis nowadays in girls looking "feminine".

I can only remember having 3 dresses growing up, seeker, and they were for parties/best. However, I did go to a school where I had to wear a skirt so being able to wear trousers is a definite improvement.

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