Mumsnet Talk

I decribe myself as a feminist. I am not as politically aware as most of the posters here and I am not an activist. I am working class and in my mid 40s. I bought my girl up (till I lost her) to understand that women are equal and I bring my boys up the same.

I know this has probably been done before so apolgies if its a bit of a bore.....

Got a letter home from DS's school last week addressed to Mr & Mrs A DeVere (A being OH's initial).
It really, properly annoyed me. I checked myself to see if I was being a bit OTT but no, it genuinely angers me.
Now I know I took his surname when we married but TBH it was a pragmatic reason. My surname was unusual and attracted a lot of negative attention and piss taking. I was glad to be rid of it. I really dont think I would have made the change if I had a nice/normal name.

But to have my given name ignored and to be included as a sort of appendage to my OH enrages me. I feel all clenched up about it.

I put a note on the letter and sent it back explaining that I preferred NOT to be addressed by my husbands intial. I thought nothing more of it.

Got a letter back to day totally missing the point and expaining to me that all letters are addressed to both resident parents

I have no objection to that ffs. Of course my son's dad should be included. I just dont want to be an add on with no name.

I am not jumping up and down and threatening to burn the school down but I have to admit to feeling really pissed off. Is it just me? Some friends are a bit meh others agree with me.

WHY do they do it?

Thanks for wading though that stream of consciousness.

It has been done before, many times, and that is because it is in fact a big deal. Not big like FGM or an unequal wage is, but big in the sense it's an institutionalized dig at women's position in society. Many women react to it in a very negative way and it is a form of address from a women-as-property paradigm. You aren't overreacting.

Most of the defense of its use nowadays is that it is "proper etiquette" and people are only following the rules. As though if you were told to hit your manservant when he failed to stop a car splashing you it would be OK to do that too. The reality is it hasn't been socially appropriate to use that form of address for decades and it is downright rude to do so now.

Thank you.
I thought it might have been done before but I wanted some feedback so thanks for indulging me

Last time I got a letter like this it was from a Social work dept from a london borough often cited for its extreme PC ness.

How can it be correct etiquette?

Tis crap.

tis crap indeed. This isn't the 1950s. I'd be most upset. Can I add that many men who have viewed me, as a public figure, as being Mrs have got upset! Really. They hate it! They think it should be first names only.

Keep with it and don't let it drop. Ask in future that you don't be addressed as Mr and Mrs but by your first names. Good luck.

It's not correct etiquette think - think someone on a previous thread linked to Debrett's latest stuff saying it was now considered rude.

Not sure how much we should care about Debrett's, obviously (I'm not even sure I'm spelling it right), but it is rude.

thanks.
I will. I really like the school so I will keep it polite but insistant.

Debrett's doesn't list a proper form as correct:

www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/joint-forms-of-address.aspx

The Rt Hon John and Mrs Brown

Mr John and the Hon Mrs Green

Mr and Mrs Thomas Grey

Dr John and Dr Jane Watkins

Mr Mark and the Reverend Hazel Pugh

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere wrote - "Got a letter home from DS's school last week addressed to Mr & Mrs A DeVere (A being OH's initial)...Got a letter back to day totally missing the point and expaining to me that all letters are addressed to both resident parents"

As you are not Mrs A. DeVere, the use of your OH's initial and the absence of your initial in the correspondence from the school is breaking the school's own policy of addressing both parents. The school is addressing Mr A DeVere and Mrs A DeVere, only one of whom is a resident parent.

The school is also ignoring other scenarios:
If your DS's initial is A, he could well be Mr A DeVere.
If your OH's mother lives with you and if her initial is A, she could well be Mrs A DeVere.

I am sceptical that anybody in your DS's school administration would bother to consult Debrett's before writing to parents. They probably just went with what they have usually got away with in the past.

In future, perhaps all schools could address letters to "The Parent(s) of <child's name>".

I hate hate hate this. Only just getting over the Xmas cards

I think that in complaining about it to a school you could remind them of their equality and diversity policy.

I HATE this & would be fuming if the school did it to me. (I haven't taken DP's name but all the inlaws insist on addressing me as Mrs Him Hisname)

That would be interesting Lapsus as they are a SN school

Glad its not just me.
Usually the letters are addressed to 'the parents of'
This was a letter re late dinner money (as it happens their mistake not ours humph)

So probably a standard, huffy letter and they feel the need to make it all formal.

Debrett's did still list "Mr and Mrs Thomas Grey".

And won't it be nice after the revolution to see half those listings with the woman's name first.

Mr & Mrs J Smith is quite correct for a formal letter. What's very old fashioned and wouldn't be acceptable any more is calling you Mrs (husband's first name) Smith in isolation. The alternative is to address it to Mr J & Mrs P Smith. Mr J Smith and Mrs P Smith is rather clumsy.

Why not just Mr and Mrs Smith?
Our letters from the mortgage company are Mr John Smith and Mrs Jane Smith.

Its not difficult to change and this isnt a matter of what looks neat on an envelope.

I dont understand why it would be old fashioned to call me by my husband's full name but its ok to call me by his initial. Its the same thing in a shortened form surely?

Mr & Mrs Lastname = fine

Mr A & Mrs B Lastname = fine

Not too difficult to write either of those, is it?

Sorry, sounds as if I got the Debretts thing a bit wrong. It's clearly not the only formal version accepted, then.

Btw, I was taught it's rude not to use an initial/name, but as you say, it's hardly difficult to manage 'Mrs Jane and Mr John'.

I'm wondering slightly how this all squares up with the fact it's illegal to open a letter not addressed to you. Technically if I got a letter to 'Mr and Mrs Hisname', I shouldn't open it as I'm not Mrs Hisname. I don't know how it works to say you're not Mrs A Yourname. (theoretical musings, obviously)

Cogito Mr & Mrs J Smith is quite correct for a formal letter.

Correct according to some manuals of style but still socially inappropriate in the UK (since married women have had agency in their own right for decades) and offensive to many - so incorrect in every other way. It's lazy and blinkered to trot out a "it's what we've always done" defense to something that causes wide spread offense or is anachronistic.

It is technically correct. If you call yourself Mrs Devere, which means "wife of Mr Devere", then being addressed as Mr and Mrs A. Devere (Mr A. Devere and his wife) is basically the same thing. I do dislike it and never address letters in that way myself but then I dislike the whole name changing thing anyway.

I dont understand why it would be old fashioned to call me by my husband's full name but its ok to call me by his initial. Its the same thing in a shortened form surely

When you're together Mr and Mrs A. Devere would be correct but calling you Mrs Hisname Devere when there's just there would be old-fashioned.

Debrett's doesn't list a proper form as correct

*They do. Mr and Mrs Thomas Grey. All the others have one or the other partner being more important than an ordinary Mr or Mrs which accounts for the difference.

If you want the school to address you differently, you need to tell them. Although a lot of women don't like it, it was a logical assumption by them.*

I was wondering today,
what if it was a same sex relationship.

Who would they chose as the most important then?

AFAIK quite a lot of couples use double barrelled names after a civil partnership so this would apply.

AND how come its ok to use my intial when the school are writing directly to me (as in the case of the second letter) but as soon as my OH is bought into the equation my intial becomes superfluous?

It doesnt make sense.
There can be no other interpretation than the man is more important than the woman.
Even if the person using the convention doesnt realise it.

I think I'm right in saying (and Wikipedia agrees with me) that once-upon-a-time, you'd be Mrs Him DeVere as long as you were still married (even if the letter were only addressed to you), but Mrs You DeVere once you were divorced.

It would annoy me.

It's outdated & ignorant.

Letters could be addressed to:-

Mr A & Mrs B DeVere

or

Mr & Mrs DeVere (added bonus of having one less character to hit on the keyboard - a win-win situation)

There can be no other interpretation than the man is more important than the woman.
Of course there can't, that's the whole point of it really. The woman is relegated to so and so's wife. The same applies to Mr and Mrs Devere with no initial.

I cant disagree with that either rosy
Tis true.

It just makes it that bit worse to lose my first name as well as my second. At least it was my choice to change my surname (for reasons given in OP).

OP - I had exactly the same problem with my son's school. I called them and demanded they change their records. I said to them that they should change the way they address all the parents but if not please change mine. All future correspondence was addressed to Mr A and Mrs C Jones, which suited me fine. I am just in the middle of an arguement with the Halifax as they have refused to change the way they address me and DH. They insist on Mr and Mrs A Jones, hence I have closed my account and we have closed our joint account too. It makes me sick. I also pointed out to the school that they should be teaching gender equality and addressing mothers as 'belonging to their husbands' is not a good way to teach.

OP Can I ask you, which area do you live in. I am the 'only feminist in Doncaster!!!!' so every chance I get I try to look for someone in my area!!!

Stewie Griffin's mum = brilliant, I will try that one next time it happens because as I am only a chattle to my husband I am sure it will!