Mumsnet Talk

What will happen if you try?

The relationship between my SIL and her 14 year old DD has broken down to the level that SIL is happy her DD to go into foster care. My niece does not want to live at home (usual 14 year old stuff) and her mum is not brilliant at discipline (admits to the "anything for a quiet life" school of parenting). SIL is taking her DD to granny's this afternoon and leaving her there with £100 and their social worker's phone number.
Social services appear only to want to help with pointing SIL in the direction of parenting classes at times she can't go to because of work.
I don't have teenagers yet, so don't know what to suggest to help the situation.
Any ideas?
Thanks

Sorry, but I think my first action would be to call granny, warn her, and then take her out of the afternoon so she isn't mixed up in this. Not her child, so not her problem.

Your SIL needs to go back to Social Services and explain that she can't go to the classes and what else can they offer? Dumping her daughter on granny is not the answer and leaves granny sorting out the mess if SS say that she's alright because she's with family.

If she's with granny, SS won't take her.
Your poor neice
Can you take her?
And as for parenting courses, I know plenty that run in the evening and if your sister really wanted to do it, she would find a way.
I think you hit the nail on the head with "anything for a easy life" and that clearly includes her dd.

Oh and sorry to answer your OP, yes you can put your child into voluntary care but don't think it will be easy to get her back, and don't believe she will ever forgive your sister

Please PM MaryZ. She is fantastic with advice in these situations.

where is the child's father? is there other family that could take the girl temporarily to let mother and daughter have a bit of space from each other? does granny want the girl with her?

A week with her Gran might not be a bad thing. I stayed with my grandparents for a week when mum chucked me out, she'd tried to leave me at the SS office but they wouldn't take me.

I certainly wouldn't put a child into care whatever they're doing, I don't think anything good will come of it. Our home was a battle ground but it came good in the end, going into care would have done more harm than good.

I would have thought the relationship must have broken down beyond the girl not wanting to live at home and the mum not having time for parenting classes.

If your sister genuinely cannot cope with a seriously troubled child, then yes it is possible (but very difficult) to persuade SS to take her into care. But is that the best thing for her? Because going into care doesn't mean a lovely children's home or a caring foster family. Not at 14. It is much more likely to be some sort of teenage care home with teenagers with real difficulties - often from violent and abusive homes, often with major problems with drugs and alcohol, often with early school leavers or kids who have never really gone to school at all .

There are parents on Mumsnet who have had to do this - but it is very much a last resort.

Can you help? Can her granny take her for a week or two? Is there any sort of family counselling/mediation available in your area, possibly run through the school or through SS?

Finally - you say "the number of her social worker" - does that mean there has been SS intervention before? If there has, the chances of getting help are higher. If it is just the number of the local social services office, it is very unlikely they will just swoop in and take her away.

Does your SIL think a care home will act as a wake-up call? That her daughter would come back after a week or two with a more constructive attitude?

I can't believe anyone would just dump their child tbh. How awful.

It doesnt sound like usual 14 year old stuff, to get this serious ? At 14, she is a vulnerable young woman, however bad her behaviour and your sister does need to understand what environments she would go into if she went into care. If she's a 'normal' 14 year old, care is not the place for her. Your sister might be frustrated and want her to learn a lesson, but please encourage her to think in the longer term of the damage this could do.

If family therapy, and individual therapy and parenting support are exhausted, I know there are situations where this has had to happen, but if the situation is this serious, it sounds like it might be an idea to advise your sister to do everything possible to improve the relationship before resorting to this, even if she has to ask work for a bit of time off.

If Granny has been involved in the teens life and is a stable and calm influence and iswilling to take her short term, then this could be an option . If your niece will talk to you, perhaps you could help by listening to both of them . Often relationship breakdowns are complex, and both teens and adults do need the chance to learn tools to cope with their emotions. I would suggest that your sister should push for camhs support for her daughter and family therapy for them both.

Your DN can ask to be taken into care and her parents can agree to a Sect 20.

However, it is very hard to do this because if SS did for every family having difficulties with their teenagers....

It is unlikely the child has a proper understanding of what being in care is really like. As PP have said, it is unlikely she will get a foster carer and (depending what side of 14 she is) she may go straight into a hostel type situation.

I wouldn't judge a parent for 'dumping' their child unless I knew the whole story. Teenagers can deliberately push to this point because they are convinced they will get a flat or live in a Tracey Beaker style kid's home if they get SS to take them.

If GM can take her to give a bit of respite that is probably the best thing all round. Give SIL time to cool down and DN a change to realise that she will be expect to follow rules there to.

By not re arranging her work to go to parenting classes, your sil is not really trying everything she can first in my opinion. She's basically saying that work comes before her daughter.

I'm sure some sort of respite would be good for both if them though and give them some time out. I know social services do this.

Could sil find the time to commit to parenting classes and find some sort of family counselling first though?

Does the grandmother know that this is happening?

I am not an expert, my boys are only just teens, but I did used to work as the residential support at a project for young women with behavioural problems. This doesn't make me an expert or anything, but I do have some small experience with families in crisis and with troubled teenage girls.

If the grandmother has agreed to take her, then I would suggest you do nothing beyond supporting them all and perhaps finding out where they can go for help at this point. If she's agreed to help out in order to give them both some space then that's ok. They can work from there, get some help, get talking.

If she's just planning on dumping her there without agreement, then the grandmother must choose whether to accept that and turn it into the above, or phone social services and report the child as abandoned or something.

If I had a say, which I know I do not, I would advise against telling social services she's abandoned her at her grandmothers.

Your sil should not dismiss these classes. She should move heaven and earth to make it work. Find out if she can swap shifts, or if there are classes anywhere else at other times, etc. She has to make the effort. She's the adult here and if she's not in control or doesn't understand how to parent a teen, or is really struggling - the onus is upon her to learn and to change.

'She's basically saying that work comes before her daughter'

Exactly. I'm afraid I do judge someone who would do this to a 14 year old. I am sure things are very difficult but someone who really loves their child will do everything to work out difficulties - this doesn't appear to be the case. Parenting is bloody hard but you don't just get to throw the towel in. I can understand that sometimes children need to go into care when their parents are too ill to look after them but because they are getting in the way of a work commitment? The mind boggles. Childrens homes are horrible, unstable places for a child to be. However difficult and or hostile the dd is, underneath she must be very hurt to know her mother wants her gone.

If it's really just "usual 14 year old stuff" plus "anything for a quiet life" parenting, then the chances of your niece being taken into care are almost zero.

It costs hundreds of pounds a week to keep a child in care, and it is a very, very last resort.

If your niece's granny has her, then SS will not take her. Granny will have to throw her out too. Even then, SS's first, second, third and fourth resort will be to try to get your niece back with her mum, or failing that, another family member (including you).

If everyone connected with the girl refuses to have her, then she is most likely to end up in B&B accommodation in the short-term, and a hostel in the medium-to-long term. Placement with a foster carer is very unlikely.

I would never judge a parent in this situation - it is almost impossible to know just how awful a teenager is behaving at home, because almost all of them behave better elsewhere and save their worst stuff for 'behind closed doors'. It might be that your SIL is really desperate. If you want to help, giving her direct support, or helping her access it, is probably the most useful thing for you to do.

Not everyone can "rearrange" work to accommodate other commitments, some employers simply won't have it. Many many jobs in fact wouldn't allow for this. She presumably has to prioritise feeding the family and keeping a roof over their heads

How awful for them all. I'm not judging your SIL either btw.

Maryz's advice is excellent as usual. The girl has no idea what being in care at 14 is like.

Are there any other relatives who could have her for a few weeks and maybe host some mediative talks between mother and dd?

A teenager, bent on a certain course of behaviour, can cause total chaos.

If she has been playing up a bit and mum decides to dump her, fair enough, judge away.

If this has been going on for months and months and now mum is being expected to take unpaid leave from work to go on a parenting course, after trying all kinds of talking, sanctions and whatever else,

judging someone for not wanting to put their job at risk for something they are pretty sure is not going to help?

I don't know what is going on but if this young lady has decided she wants to go into care it is unlikely that her mum going to parenting classes is going to stop her pushing until she gets what she thinks she wants.

A 14 year old can't possibly know what's best for her though.

'A teenager, bent on a certain course of behaviour, can cause total chaos.'

I don't doubt this, honestly. But who could let their child go into a children's home, knowing that they are only likely to end up worse off and a target for further problems? I couldn't walk away not knowing where my child was or what was happening to them each day, no matter how hellish things were with them at home. And there must be a reason why the dd is behaving this way - a child cannot be blamed for their behaviour imo.

This is not to say that I don't empathise with the SIL.

I should think they absolutely will take her - my DD got it into her head to go and "live" with her BF when she was 15. Things were fraught at home but on reflection it was teenage angst - so no serious behaviour, no involvement from SS before. Anyway - I refused to let my DD stay at her BFs even though his mother was condoning it (i was a terrible mother that took away my DDs hair straighteners because she was literally unable to turn them off so she actually bought my DD a new pair ) So i called the police - the police agreed with me that my DD was not to stay there but she refused to come home (the cow!) So the police said that the alternative was for her to be taken into temporary care - as it was i asked a friend if DD could stay with her over night and it was fine. I think it all shocked DD that it escalated to that point so quickly - she was home the next day and soon dumped the twat boyfriend.

So yes i woudl have thought tht they would do so - it does sound like your SIL and her DD clash terribly, its not uncommon and teenagers can be a bloody nightmare - my DD has left home now - she is 22 and is doing ok, has lovely DP a job and a nice little flat together (on the sea front how jealous am i!) We have a good relationship but in all honesty, i don't think we can live together - doesn't mean i don't love her and wouldnt die for her though!

She is very unlikely to go into care unless she absolutely insists that she wants to go into care.

She may do this by telling SS or she may do this by ramping up her behaviour until her family feel they have no choice but to agree.

At 14 she doesn't have a clue what is best for her but she can be bloody sure she thinks she does. This may mean stealing, being violent, running away and indulging in risky behaviours.

Sometimes parents will agree to a section 20 because they fear what will happen if they don't 'give in'.

Lots of children who are accommodated by SS in this way will hightail it back home in weeks. Even those who have been given the holy grail 'temporary accommodation' That means an actual flat, with a fair amount of cash (by a 16 year old standards).

FWIW SS are supposed to place children of this age in FC and not in group homes but there are not many places available. They are absolutely not supposed to place them in hostel type placements.

We don't know what has been going on with this family. I would want to know a lot more before I could make any sort of judgement. Teens are the hardest age group IME. Give me a newborn or a mad toddler any day.

I do know that teens can be a nightmare. A friend of mine had terrible trouble with her dd who had been doing very well at school and was a responsible girl who suddenly started hitting her and getting in trouble with the police. It turned out that her father (who never saw her) was stirring up trouble by sending her messages on FB about her mother. It was eventually resolved though and everything ok now as far as I know.

So I suppose I am saying is there an underlying reason for all this? Could it be unpicked somehow? (the reason for the girl's behaviour)

My dad put me in care, he refused to take me back, refused to let me stay with his mum and I refused to to go with him. He literally left me at ss offices and didn't give them a choice. There was good points being in care like being able to do whatever you want and no one able to do fuck all if you felt like staying out for a week/getting drunk and fucked up/ refusing to go to school but it was awful knowing no one actually gave a real shit about you.

All those who think that she should rearrange her work do go to "parenting classses" - maybe she thinks that the parenting classes are a waste of time and quite frankly i don't think you can learn how to parent really. I think what they need is one to one family therapy and help to relate to each other as you can't pigeon hole people into a one size fits all mentality. So just because she doesn't think she will benefit from parenting classes (i would rather stick a fork in my eye to be honest) it doesn't mean she doesn't love her daughter.

perception - i think you are right there. Although my DDs behaviour was not that bad in the scheme of things there was a reason i think. We had not long lost my dad (he was like her fatehr to be honest) and I had just had another baby (within weeks) i think all of that happening in a 15 yo life was going to have an affect.