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How about organising a Mumsnet protest against Clarion's arms fairs outside the venue? Women and children are the overwhelming casualties in wars now, not soldiers.
Hello all, Sorry for delay in getting back on this, it's been a busy few days.
Well we've cogitated, ruminated and whatever else that annoying Canadian bloke does, and we've decided not to go.
In truth we are still a bit in two minds about this - as it seems the Mumsnet community is - but we feel we need to do a bit more research/ thinking on it and generally think that it's best to err on the side of caution.
Obviously we think nasty weapons sales to evil regimes is bad - that's an easy one. Whether Clarion (the events organiser) and by extension the Baby Show should be held responsible for organising a legal event however is slightly more tricky in our minds at least. And something we'd like to think about a little more before we start banging a campaign drum about it.
Thanks to all for your input - please do continue to add your thoughts/perspective as it's very helpful for us and sorry to all those who offered to represent us at the Baby Show and who will be disappointed not to go there. We appreciate the offer of your time and hopefully they'll be other events.
It could make a difference actually... If they advertise the Baby Show on this site and people here create posts pointing out The Baby Show/Clarion's involvement with Arms shows, then you can bet Clarion's PR dept will pick up on it.
If you look hard enough you'll find everyone is connected to something or someone dodgy. I have an infinitessimally small, tenuous connection to the Clintons. Which means I'm also linked to Dubya. Yeah, exactly. Couldn't get any dodgier.
I think you should go. The positive impact you have on many lucky mothers, fathers, and babies lives will be far greater and more positive than any 'negative' action.
Jux- I too am v confused about the reciprocal advertising thing too. Perhaps we'll all be invited to the arms fair next time round?
But I'm not sure that the lack of payment makes any difference at all. Just because you're swapping a gun for ducks, doesn't mean you're not paying for it, or the deal is any more or less moral. I think this is a bit of a red herring.
And arfishy - yes, I try to. Our money is in the Co-op (such as we have), I don't shop at Asda (or Lidl) because of their labour relations. I can't afford to be perfect - esp where clothes are concerned - but I do try and think about the impact of where I spend my money. It's almost the only means of expression left to me these days.
Running an ad for a Post Office credit card (at 16.9% APR) on this thread and giving sticky status to a thread requesting information (for the Press Association) re credit crunch spending creates an interesting juxtaposition.
If no or little cash will change hands then you won't be directly supporting Clarion, so I think you should go. No point all of us sitting behind our computers feeling smug and morally superior - that's not what MN is for, although some people do make you wonder! Provide a tent for disabled babychanging if the venue won't.
When I first read this thread I thought - of course they should be there. Mumsnet is for mums and what better place to find them?
I went to the baby fair when I was pg in 2002 and picked up some good advice on reusable nappies and got special fair prices on a number of things that I genuinely needed - it's not all about pram huns (although I did get sucked into a £150 leather Baby Bjorn carrier ). Having said that the Earls court venue is rubbish for mums with buggies (unless this has changed recently) - there is no buggy access and they had hordes of buggy carrying lackeys to get the buggies up the stairs and they certainly should make the effort to have disabled access.
Then I read the views about the links with arms fairs - typical of mumsnetters and what makes mumsnet a better place than bounty et al. A very good point.
However, I think that we all deal with companies affiliated with arms/animal testing/humans rights abuse on a very regular basis. Do we all have savings in accounts knowing that they aren't going to be used to invest in companies that we don't approve of? Did you know that labour had £12 million in funding from defence contrators?
Do we all still shop at Gap despite their child labour issues? At Asda despite Walmart's employment rights issues? Eat KitKats? Vote Labour?
I think maybe telling MHHQ not to go is taking the moral high ground too far, especially if they are unable to get their message of 'why' across in the media.
I havnt read the whole thread but I think you should go. Mumsnet has been a life line to me and has helped me out so many times when I have needed a sympathetic ear of someone to make me smile when times were tough. The whole point of going to the fair is to as you say make thousands of women aware that MN exists. Could be a life saver to many of them in the near future. I think you have to think of the pro's against the cons. Yes they (clarion or whatever theyre called) might be benefitting from something terrible, but by attending this fair it might also help many mums in need of a support network. Perhaps you could email them with your concerns and see what their responce is?
Dh (the PR guru) says to email Clarion back, and ask them if any companies which sell guns or bombs are represented at these trade fairs, and if they can't give you a yes or no answer then they're talking shit.
i went to this when it came to glasgow last year -then got lots and lots of holiday scam phonecalls as a result of filling out two 'competition' forms.
the whole experience was rather depressing tbh, although i DID buy two very tasteful rattles...
it was all a bit 'cattle market' for me.
i like to think of MN as something slightly more 'maverick' than this -i actually can't imagine you there.
Thanks for all the many responses so far - they've been very helpful.
Just to answer a few questions that have come up more than once:
Why do we want to go? - mainly to spread the word to potential users rather than advertisers.
Are babyshow goers the type of people we want on MN? - well yes, as they are mostly prospective and new mums and mums are squarely in our target market (we try not to distinguish too much between tasteful mums/ pushchair obsessed mums etc as it strikes us as that would be a bit of a generalisation. And in any case folks discover pretty quickly if MN's a place they're comfortable with or not.
How essential is it for us to be there? - Not particularly essential but one of our aims is to reach as many mums as we can and there are quite a few of them at the Babyshow so we think so it's an obvious place to market the site.
How are we paying/ would the money be better spent elsewhere? - we would offer reciprocal advertising so in fact no or little cash would need to be handed over.
Couldn't we get some press and therefore attract an equal number users from a boycott? - possibly (though quite unlikely I'd say) (Though we love the pass it on idea 3kids1cat )
Having said all that we'd like to think we will come to a decision on whether to attend this event based on a reasoned moral, rather than just a pragmatic, perspective.
We are keen to be consistent and I suppose one reservation we have about this is where do you draw the line? It's nigh on impossible to be completely moral and to pay all the bills - and there's an argument which goes along the lines of all advertising is essentially misleading/overly commercial/ultimately wasteful so we shouldn't really have any at all but tbh I don't think there's an alternative way of generating the cash we need to run the site.
We hope this gives a bit more flesh to our dilemma. Please do post your thoughts if you haven't already - we'll be taking a decision in the next few days.
I don't think any of the big venues have disabled changing facilities, do many places? I agree that it's not right but I would imagine it is a widespread problem and not baby show/earls court/olympia specific.
I still think it's silly to not exhibit because they also own defence event if MN otherwise wanted to exhibit, which they did.
I think if we want to change the legal way that arms are traded because we disagree with that, then there are better ways of doing it, through awareness raising and lobbying.
I think MN avioding a baby show because it is organised by a comapny which organises legal arms fairs amongst many other things, is all getting quite tenuous to the point of being meaningless.
Still, rather you than me at the baby show.
(Although I do think new mums are just the sort that benefit the most form MN, unlike jaded oldies like me on style threads!)
DaddyJ - at first I read your posts as asking whether the baby show is inherently evil... evil's a bit of a strong word in my book, but I don't think all that consumerism is very good.
Agree with policywonk - there is a big difference between the two.
Definitely don't think that Mumsnet should be there, particularly with the history of recent campaigning against these events forcing previous owners to sell. It's not as though you can pretend lack of knowledge.
Also, is it possible to maintain a Nestle boycott while implictly approving of arms fairs. Cluster bombs vs formula milk...
It may be the venue ewe but the exhibitors should get round that by making facilities available. Blaming it on the venue would be like complaining to the owner of a field that an event didn't hire any portaloos.
I'd prefer the view from the moral high-ground. (But then, I'm not trying to run a business).
Besides which - aren't baby shows just shamelessly exploiting the hormonal vulnerablility of pregnant women? Full of stuff you don't need, and won't bother with beyond pfb.
Design maternity towel packaging that appeals to men. Insert mumsnet info. That'll reach new mums. Always the first thing you send OH out to buy.
Clarion now own 5 arms fairs. They went out of their way to purchase these fairs. They host the companies that sell, amongst other things, cluster bombs.
That's the venue though, they have disabled toilets, wheelchair hire, assistants, disabled parking... Seems like they are doing all they can. I would complain to Earls Court if they should have disabled changing facilities too.
Clarion don't make cluster bombs, they are an events company.
However, I don't think MN can now attend as so many people are totally against it. Which in my opinion is a shame.
http://www.thebabyshow.co.uk/earls-court-london/hassle-free/pampers-changing/ - with free nappies and wipes for those not using reusables
I think it would be great for MN to be there - the reason is of course to get more people using MN, making people more aware of it etc I would love more of my friends to see it as the excellent resource it can be. More people = more advertising revenue for MN too, everyone is a winner.
Please don't go. Clarion bought 2 more arms fairs in September making a total of 5 they now own (all purchased this year). Yes they sell to the military. The Saudi military, the Indonesian military and the Chinese military amongst others. They sell cluster bombs.
Oh I know Peachy, I just thought the arms thing was the most uninformed part of the argument. I think MN should go. Get the message out there! Be the lone voice of sanity amongst the formula flogging and early weaning clubs!
I don't care about it from a publicity for MN perspective to be honest, MN was invaluable to me in the early weeks when my DD was born and I think that the more people who are aware of them (and to be honest, I don't know anyone who has heard of MN and I know LOADS of people who attended the baby shows) then I think they should do it.
Ultimately these events have to exist, someone has to run them, the main exhibitors are electronics companies, vehicle suppliers, equipment suppliers etc. All essentials. Guns are a very small part of the event and not even represented at one of the events. Oh and FWIW when they do have arms manufacturers exhibiting it is normally in a sectioned off area that you have to have security clearance to enter (this was the case when Reed owned them, doubt Clarion will have changed this) - the government do have to buy guns!
I have a friend who used to come over to the UK to go to the arms fair. He was an arms buyer for the Australian Military. The British Military also would attend these fairs to properly equip (hopefully) the soldiers fighting in Aphganistan/Iraq etc. Just thought I'd throw that into the equation.
But ewe we don't always know that they are in anyway to do with arms. With this one we do. MN do not need to go to this fair. They can achieve more publicity (I'm assuming that is what they want) by not going than going. So why go?
that' not even a personal e-mail; if it were it would address what they could offer mn as a unique business: its just a circlar with a name at the top. Cynical.... (and suggestive of how many others conidering same thing.
E-mail them back at the very least and ask why they think they'd be a good choice for a site with a strong sn support side given theres no facillities
previously clarion didnt own these fairs and clarion raqn the majority of fairs and exhibitions so you could go to them without the associtaion now they have bought them true you cant
To be honest, you would never attend any events/exhibitions/conferences if you didn't want to go to anything associated with arms/defence.
I recruit into this industry - infact, Clarion are a client of mine - the industry is very incestual and most events in the UK will be run by a company affiliated with arms in some way.
We need arms and military defences, yes in an ideal world we wouldn't but this is not an ideal world!
Well, they still have that daft C.B-C going and are sponsored by BOUNTY who suck and are, in my cynical little brain, on the road to being as bad as Nestle. And they don't have disabled changing facilities. Plus their email is shoite. They are supporting arms, however they do it, or else why would the previous owners have sold up due to public pressure?
NO. You are supporting people who support people who sells guns and bombs which kill people. Legitimate or not. (and half the legitimate dealers deal illicitly anyway - read Private Eye)
this definitely does not answer my comcerns!!! no body ever suggested it was an arms fair speciifcally tagreted at terrorists and oppressive regimes. abiding by 'strictest govt guidelines' does not reassure me in the slightest. 'defence and security industry' is just that- an industry, whose highest motivation is profit, therefore they will sell wherever they can. Don't go. If you look at te Campaign Against the Arms Trade ws, (http://www.caat.org.uk/campaigns/armsfairs/reedelsevier.php) you will see all the people- academics, HCPs, Joseph Rowntree trust who have objected to these fairs. Don't go!
Hi, we got in touch with Clarion after we had the original email from the mum querying why MN was thinking of going to the Baby Show. Here's their response:
Dear Carolyn
I wanted to write to you since you recently received a misleading and inflammatory email with regard to our business. I am concerned that this may have alarmed you, and wanted to take this opportunity to personally set the record straight and allay the concerns you have expressed.
As part of Clarion Events’ ongoing development, we publicly announced the acquisition of three defence and security exhibitions in May and the acquisition of a further two last month. The email you received inaccurately describes these as “arms fairs”; in fact, these are trade exhibitions which enjoy full UK and international Government support and which serve only the legitimate global defence industry. Exhibitors, including many leading British companies, must adhere to the highest regulatory standards, not just complying with, but also exceeding domestic and international law.
The email you received implies that the legitimate defence industry contributes to the illegal trade in weapons and human rights around the world - this is not the case. The UK places the strictest controls on the export of defence equipment and services and has led the way in the adoption of the EU Code of Conduct on arms exports.
Clarion Events has been creating and developing high quality exhibitions and events in a wide range of diverse sectors for more than 30 years, from retail to cars and from fine art to energy. Doing so in a well regulated, world class environment is our primary aim and we apply the same very high standards, rigour, experience, skill and care to organising all of our events.
We do not believe that public opinion is opposed to the defence and security industry. Whilst we respect everyone’s right to an opinion we, as you would expect, considered our decision to run events for this sector very carefully and we remain entirely secure with this.
We do believe that visitors and exhibitors at The Baby Show will continue to judge us on the standard of the event and the significant benefits everyone receives as a result of participating. Visitor bookings for the Earls Court show are already ahead of last year. We are looking forward to another very successful event.
I hope my letter answers any concerns you might have and hope that we will work together at this upcoming Baby Show and in the future.
If you do have any further questions however, please feel free to contact me.
TMMJ: "pull out and do press release about WHY. going would be dodgy for several reasons. 1) connections with arms dealers 2) would attract too many huns."
I read that and got confused about why we don't want to attract 2nd World War germans.
I agree with all who have posted to say don't go. There are better ways to drum up website hits and registrations. No one will give it much of a look, they're after freebies and "I want one of those" stalls.
tis shame the attendees will miss out but there it is - I suspect your ideal target audience is otherwhere anyway.
also a shame if MN lose advertising revenoo they may otherwise have scooped but agree there is virtue in not being easily bought.
(I do wonder about the disparity between The Ideal MNer from a) our point of view and b) the advertisers' point of view sometimes. Would they like more bottle-using, Pampers-buying Boden-wearers who alreayd buy the stuff in the ads? Or more bfing clothbottomed scruffs so they can convert them? )
I would pay a lot to see Swedes selling propane and propane accessories at the petrochemicals fair. She'd have to leave the cheroots at home, for starters. And don't they still man the stalls topless there?
1. whole point of baby show is to sell, sell, sell anxious first-parents things that they don't need and can't afford - thus commercialization of infancy/childhood.
2. Arms fairs very, very different from Armed Forces. Proven, time and time again, to go over The Line - thus ethical insupportable. Solution: what Threadie said.
3. TACKY. Tackytackytackytackytackytacky! For god's sakes women, if torture doesn't stop you in your tracks, surely the vulgarity quotient will?
And tbh, I'm not sure how many expectant mums would be tempted by MN at a show like that - they will all be gushing over huge 3-wheel pushchairs, cot bumpers and matching babygrows and booties.
to do a trade show properly you need a great eye-catching Point of Sale piece .. you can't just whack a couple of laptops down and have a bit of signage really
to have people representing your brand is farkin' dangerous if you ask me .. yes I'm sure all the volunteers are lovely and wonderful but they are individuals and the point of MN is the melting pot .. you're putting all your eggs in an unknown basket. And making the personality of the site the personality of those mners who are happy to attend and do it .. Danger Will Robinson, Danger!
oh and the fact that we don't want any more proles (did I mention that one)
Provide a tent for disabled babychanging if the venue won't. 
). Having said that the Earls court venue is rubbish for mums with buggies (unless this has changed recently) - there is no buggy access and they had hordes of buggy carrying lackeys to get the buggies up the stairs and they certainly should make the effort to have disabled access.
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