Difference between KS2 level 6 and KS3 level 6

[Idratherbemuckingout]

Hi, I saw on another post that if your child has got a level 6 in the KS2 age group, he may well not get a level 6 when he goes up to secondary.
I wasn't aware there was a huge difference and had assumed that level 6 meant level 6 all across the board. So, if my son, who is HE, is a very good level 6 at KS 3 level, that would mean he is PROPER level 6? He is Year 6 by the way.
I ask this, because for his entrance exams the maths teacher (on open day) said they expected Level 6 from the children for the entrance exam.
But this must mean KS2 level 6, mustn't it? I think.
So if your child is level 6 KS3, he must be higher than level 6 KS2?
Am I right?
To be honest, he's level 7 really, but I only need him to be level 6.

[scaryteacher]

There is a world of difference between KS2 levels and KS3. They are not on a continuum at all. I thought KS2 only went up to L5 (they do for SATs anyway).

If a child was a L4 KS2, I would expect them to be just attaining L3 or perhaps lower for secondary, unless they were very bright. We assess different things at secondary so are looking for a greater degree of maturity in their work. It's always a shock to parents when their child gets less on an assessment in secondary than they got in SATs.

[ragged]

that's crazy, that they don't join up (not blaming Scaryteacher).
I've heard that some schools set papers for L6 in KS2. Good to learn how little it means, though.

[Idratherbemuckingout]

I did manage to download some Level 6 (at KS2 level) papers from a few years ago, then they discontinued them, so my son has been doing KS3 sats from time to time since Year 5. We started on the level 3 to 5 ones, but that was too easy, so he is now on the level 5 to 7 mostly, but can manage a few at level 8.
So, Scaryteacher, if he's continually getting high level 6s and low 7s at KS3 in Year 6, what will he get when we get to secondary? If he is offered a place that is. Unfortunately it doesn't depend on his maths performance - there's english, VR and NVR, an interview, a sports assessment etc too. Needless to say, he is best at maths.

[MigratingCoconuts]

I've heard that some schools set papers for L6 in KS2. Good to learn how little it means, though.

well...it does mean something in the primary world! It just means something different in the secoondary world, is all.

i'drather be What he gets at secondary will depend on how well he has learned the stuff you are testing him on. He sounds like a level 7 kid but he will have to be taught the detailed science first. The level you get really depends on the quality of answers you give.

To b honest, I would worry about what he is likey to get at KS3 when he is actually in KS3.

[Idratherbemuckingout]

Well, doing HE means you can move at different paces in different subjects, which is good. So you might be on Year 9 work in one subject, but only Year 6 or 7 in another. I really like that aspect. You can go much more deeply into a subject than your child would have the opportunity to at school, which my DS finds really nice. You can even do subjects they would not get to do normally. We do Latin for instance, not availabe usually in primary, and he likes the logic of it.

[MigratingCoconuts]

yes...but if its for an entrance exam (state or private??) then surely its will be the primary level 6 that they are requiring?

Your term 'proper' in your op is misleading, I think, because a KS2 level 6 is a proper level 6...for KS2.

[Idratherbemuckingout]

Yes, sorry about using the word proper, didn't really think that one out. Of course they are both proper, but I meant proper for secondary school. I imagine so but you never know do you.

[ElbowFan]

Just a couple of comments to add into the pot

Did I not see that there would be Level 6 papers available for KS2 this year?

Also I thought the 'Assessing Pupil Progress' materials/idea was supposed to go some way to ironing out the differences, but that rather seems to have fallen by the wayside.

What consititutes a Level 6 in Reading or separately in Writing in a secondary school? I thought that by the time the chidlren had left Primary the subject was bound up into 'English'.

[noblegiraffe]

In maths a level 3-5 paper doesn't contain any algebra at KS2, but the 3-5 KS3 paper does.

I've no idea about differences between a KS2 level 6 and a KS3 level 6 because it hasn't come up before.

[PotteringAlong]

Of course they join uP! Level 6 is a level 6 regardless of key stage

We do find in my experience that some Pupils come up with a level in their sats that diesn't reflect their true abilities because they've been coached to within an inch of their lives to pass their sats but can't apply it wider than that. Because of that we can occasionally have to mark pupils down when they arrive with us in year 7.

[scaryteacher]

Pottering - they so do not join up. I had kids who has level 5 in their KS2 SATs and got a low Level 3 in their first assessment for me because they had been coached for SATs, but as you say, this did not reflect their actual ability.

I had a lad who had L5 in science at KS2, but could not actually read or write, so he didn't get a L5 at KS3. It is not 'occasionally' marking pupils down; about 65% of my Year 7s got a level or two lower than their KS2 SATs results would suggest (which why I always looked at reading age rather than SATs to get a better idea of their ability for humanities).

[Idratherbemuckingout]

Goodness. Yes, my son has done lots of algebra and is really good at it, plus base numbers, pythagoras, pi etc.

[cricketballs]

its the same in my subject; the KS2 level 4/5 is not the same at KS3 as there are several aspects at these levels that primary does not cover and therefore can not possibly achieve this level when they come to us.

This is usually what takes most of the time at year 7 parents evening; explaining the differences rather than discussing the actual student's achievements and what they need to do to improve

[asiatic]

Teacher assessments in KS2 are often wildly out, as are parent assessments. KS3 teachers are trained and moderated to asess their own subject, but primary teachers can't be, as they have too many subjects, and have to teach, rather than spend their life training to assess.

KS3 assessments in science are not related to KS2 assessments, as they are in different subjects. For example, a child who excells at the somewhat bizarre, over simplified, general science at KS2, has never actually been assessed in chemistry, and when they are, it will be a completely new subject, not related to what went before.

Unless you know what KS2 science is about, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I teach science to degree level, and don't understand some of the KS2 SATS questions. It certainly has no relationship to what is taught in KS3.

Progressing at different rates in different subjects is not unusual, but in a school setting, this should be addressed, so school pupils have support in their weaker areas. If weaker areas are ignored, this is going to have an impact on the liklihood of success in a selection process assessing all round ability and apptitude.

[MigratingCoconuts]

that's an excellent post asiatic and my experience too

[Banter]

I'm not sure that I agree with the comment that teacher assessments at the earlier stage are "wildly out", when the point is that the breadth of learning at the later stage should be wider. We don't have a system whereby students who don't meet the norm repeat that year's work the following year. If a student is not secure across the breadth of a subject compared to the norm for that year, surely it's right that their assessment reflects that position?

By the way, there are similar level differences at KS1 to KS2 transition, and KS3 to KS4 as well. These lead to endless discussions about the apparant performance dips from key stage to key stage, particularly where there is a change of school.

[TimeForCake]

There are separate L6 papers this year for KS2 SATs. Only the most able pupils are put in for them I think.

[Feenie]

In maths a level 3-5 paper doesn't contain any algebra at KS2, but the 3-5 KS3 paper does.

KS2 papers have always included algebra, noblegiraffe.

It's certainly possible to scrape a test level in KS2 tests, and for the result not to match a pupil's ability. I don't agree, however, that rigorous teacher assessment at, say, level 5 would not match level 5 at secondary. We do lots of moderation with local high schools, and lots of observed teaching. Secondary teachers are, in general, surprised at the high level of expectations we have at primary school and we have been equally surprised at their lower ones. We've worked hard across the key stages to address Y7 apathy and boredom, and part of that has been ensuring that teacher assessment is the same across the tiers.

It's insulting to say primary teachers are not specialists in their subjects - of course some are! I am Literacy coordinator and an English Literature graduate. I know exactly what typical reading and writing levels look like inside out, thanks!

[MigratingCoconuts]

In terms of science, there were always, historically, slightly different things assessed at KS2 and at KS3 meaning that the transition from KS2 to KS3 was never as smooth as the levels made it appear.

However, I also think students take a dip at the start of year 7 just because they are adjusting to a secondary school setting and a different way of assessing. however, this re-adjusts by the time they get to roughly the end of the first term.

As a KS3 co-ordinator, I have found that moving to a two year KS3 has removed a lot of this dipping in levels. Dunno why!

[noblegiraffe]

Sorry, Feenie, I have seen so many KS2 maths papers that don't contain algebra that I thought that they always didn't. I have been through the past 8 KS2 papers on the emaths website and only found 2 'proper' algebra questions, and they were far more basic than those on the KS3 3-5 paper where you would be expected to solve equations and manipulate expressions.

[Feenie]

Depends what you call 'proper' algebra!

[gazzalw]

Our DCs Head told us that Level 6 is Level 6 whether it's done in Year 6 or Year 7. DS is one of a group of children doing Level 6 for SATS and it is very different from the other work they have done - proper algebra, BODMAS (which I'm pretty sure we never did at school at all!), complex products etc.... He has just done some homework this morning so I can vouch for the fact that this is a higher level of maths....

[noblegiraffe]

Feenie - I would call '5 more than k is ....k+5' proper algebra. Or 'if m is 5 and n is 3 then what is m x n' (those were the questions I picked out). I wouldn't call a picture involving angles where one of the angles is labelled x with the question 'work out the angle x' proper algebra. Or questions like 'half of my number is 10, work out double my number'. Preparation for proper algebra, maybe :)

Every KS3 3-5 paper has proper algebra on it, and at a higher level than the much more rare proper algebra I've found on the KS2 papers.

So there is a difference between KS2 level 5 and KS3 level 5 in maths.

[Feenie]

I would call that early stages of algebra.

But the issue there is with the external test and the questions set - not with teacher assessment. A Y6 teacher teaching level 5 Maths would teach algrebra to the standard you describe as a matter of course. The teacher assessment of level 5 would therefore match a KS3 one.

[Feenie]

algebra. Tsk.