Tory scum make lying, insulting and patronising response to workfare petition

(203 Posts)
ttosca Tue 29-Jan-13 15:44:06

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29356

It's just unbelievable. Who do they think they're talking to?

ttosca Wed 06-Feb-13 14:10:05

> 'It's wrong no matter who does it.

> No, it isn't'. That is your ideology talking, espousing a belief as an innate truth.

> I personally believe the welfare state to be an instrument of great evil.

Classic. smile

aufaniae Wed 06-Feb-13 15:12:34

That's a great pic ttosca, thanks for that (have FBed!)

niceguy2 Wed 06-Feb-13 15:14:55

Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is not. By lumping the two together you are distorting the truth.

If I put £5k into an ISA you could argue I am employing a tax avoidance vehicle. Does that make me an evil tax dodger or exercising prudent sensible family finances?

Darkesteyes Wed 06-Feb-13 16:55:23

Abitwobbly said....

This is the right move. The universe rewards ACTION. Things comes out of other things. In the US despite the predictable screaming of lefties, workfare recipients report being much happier and fulfilled - and prefer jobs to welfare anytime

Link please.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 06-Feb-13 17:08:05

That picture is ridiculous and completely misses the point. A link to a diagram with bright colours isn't automatically making a valid point.

For one thing, it has tax avoidance lumped in with tax evasion, and tax that is uncollected.

And it only talks about welfare overpayments and benefit fraud.

What about the generous benefits that are given out legally? How are they any different to tax that is avoided?

Answer - they aren't. They are both perfectly legitimate and legal under the policies we currently live by.

Tax evasion is illegal, as is benefit fraud. If you expect one to be dealt with harshly (as I do) then you should expect the same for the other. One is not morally superior to the other just because one is more likely to be committed by the rich and one isn't.

mumblechum1 Wed 06-Feb-13 17:31:12

I don't understand how looking for a job can possibly be a full time occupation. I decided to change jobs last summer and managed to fit in the form filling, interviews etc whilst working PT, running my own business and doing two afternoons a week volunteering.

I do understand why people are upset about companies like Tesco benefitting from free (to them) employees, but can also see the advantage of the long term unemployed having something on their CV rather than nothing.

So on the whole, I think it's a good thing so long as it does what it's supposed to do, ie give people some work experience for their CV, and ideally also some decent training.

mumblechum1 Wed 06-Feb-13 17:33:54

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, ttosca, but do you work?

aufaniae Wed 06-Feb-13 17:36:06

"So on the whole, I think it's a good thing so long as it does what it's supposed to do, ie give people some work experience for their CV, and ideally also some decent training."

This might be true if there was any attempt at placing people in MWA jobs which were relevant to their career aspirations, or if training was part of the deal. But neither is true.

Decent training is not part of this scheme. It's about making people turn up to work, that's it. (people will be sent on workfare even id they have never had a problem turning up to work and have decades of experience)

aufaniae Wed 06-Feb-13 17:44:01

"I don't understand how looking for a job can possibly be a full time occupation. I decided to change jobs last summer and managed to fit in the form filling, interviews etc whilst working PT, running my own business and doing two afternoons a week volunteering."

I don't think looking for a job is a full time occupation, but being forced to work full time for nothing will considerably undermine many people's ability to apply for work, without making them any more employable.

What if you're so skint you can't afford the Internet at home and have to go to the library to access job ads?
What if your line of work doesn't get advertised online much and you have to distribute your CV by hand (and you have to walk to do this don't have any money for bus fare because you spent your last pennies on printing CVs and making yourself look presentable)

Having a full time job would seriously get in the way!

mumblechum1 Wed 06-Feb-13 17:57:54

Fair enough, but they only have to work for a few weeks, and at the end of that, they have some experience so more of a chance of getting a proper job.

aufaniae Wed 06-Feb-13 18:02:48

"at the end of that, they have some experience so more of a chance of getting a proper job."

But there is no requirement to make sure the placement will be something that adds to a person's CV.

Plenty of people with decent qualifications and/or years of experience will be sent on workfare where they are doing the most menial of jobs. For thousands, it will add nothing to their CVs, it will just Neva waste of their time. Many won't even add it to their CV as it'll make the CV look bad.

aufaniae Wed 06-Feb-13 18:03:28

*be a, not Neva. Stupid phone!

aufaniae Wed 06-Feb-13 18:06:45

"but they only have to work for a few weeks"

Some workfare placements are 6 months.

ttosca Wed 06-Feb-13 18:17:01

> Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is not. By lumping the two together you are distorting the truth.

You're right. They should have been separated. It does, however, give you a rough idea of the scale of the amount of money which could potentially be collected if both tax evasion was cracked down on and legal tax loopholes were closed.

ttosca Wed 06-Feb-13 18:23:39

Clouds-

> For one thing, it has tax avoidance lumped in with tax evasion, and tax that is uncollected.

Yes, this is true. They should have been separated. It's hard to know the true cost of tax evasion, some estimates put it in the tens of billions. The PCS puts it at £70 Billion:

www.pcs.org.uk/en/campaigns/campaign-resources/there-is-an-alternative-the-case-against-cuts-in-public-spending.cfm

> And it only talks about welfare overpayments and benefit fraud.

> What about the generous benefits that are given out legally? How are they any different to tax that is avoided?

Which 'generous' benefits? 'Generous' compared with what? Welfare in the UK isn't particularly high relative to our european neighbours.

> Tax evasion is illegal, as is benefit fraud. If you expect one to be dealt with harshly (as I do) then you should expect the same for the other. One is not morally superior to the other just because one is more likely to be committed by the rich and one isn't.

Well, if we want to tackle the deficit, purely for pragmatic reasons, tackling benefit fraud instead of tax evasion is a stupid idea, because the later dwarfs the former.

ttosca Wed 06-Feb-13 18:26:38

> I do understand why people are upset about companies like Tesco benefitting from free (to them) employees, but can also see the advantage of the long term unemployed having something on their CV rather than nothing.

> So on the whole, I think it's a good thing so long as it does what it's supposed to do, ie give people some work experience for their CV, and ideally also some decent training.

As mentioned before, those partaking in the Mandatory Workfare Activity scheme are no more likely (in fact less) to have found work than those who haven't.

Secondly, sometimes the MWA is forced on people who have only been out of work for a short time.

Thirdly, allowing companies to have free unpaid labour suppresses wages and keeps other people out of work who might otherwise be employed.

So you'll end up with more people on the dole queue, being forced in to unpaid work...

ttosca Wed 06-Feb-13 18:27:18

> I hope you don't take this the wrong way, ttosca, but do you work?

Yes. Self employed.

ttosca Wed 06-Feb-13 18:32:17

YouGov research for the Trades Union Congress identifies the gulf between public understanding and reality:

Average public perception: 41% of Britain’s welfare budget goes on benefits to unemployed people. Reality: just 3% does.

Perception: 27% of the welfare budget is claimed fraudulently. Reality (according to the Government): 0.7%.

Perception: an unemployed couple with two school-age children receive £147 a week in jobseeker’s allowance. Reality: £111.45p.

Perception: only 21% think this family would be better off if one of them got a 30-hour-a-week job on the minimum wage; and this 21% thinks, on average, the gain would be £59 a week. Reality: the family would be £138 a week better off.

There is plainly a link between the perceptions of scrounging, and the lack of public knowledge about the financial advantages of working, even for 30 hours a week on the minimum wage, compared with life on the dole.

yougov.co.uk/news/2013/01/07/welfare-reform-who-whom/

---

Outlines other public perceptions and support for Welfare reform; relevant to this discussion.

The Court of Appeal have ruled that work for benefits schemes are unlawful. [[ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9864568/Government-back-to-work-scheme-breaches-anti-slavery-laws-court-rules.html Telegraph]]
Guardian
No one can be forced to participate in Work Programme schemes until they have been redrafted to comply with the Court's ruling .Those who have received sanctions will be able to claim a rebate for monies taken away unlawfully (subject to appeal).

Wonder what IDS will come up with next?

Oops, Telegraph link.

Oh dear, it seems that it's more to do with people not being informed of the consequences of not participating. The law will be redrafted and the scheme will continue.

ttosca Tue 12-Feb-13 14:29:49

Mamma-

Yes, it's a narrow technical victory. Anti-workfare campaigning will continue, and the negative press which the MWA and other workfare schemes receive as a result of this ruling will help.

ttosca Mon 18-Feb-13 14:45:19

The people who are genuinely disgusted and outraged by this can help out by sending emails or tweets to the exploitative companies:

List Of Workfare Companies

anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/list-of-workfare-companies-mwa.html?m=1

You will also find an outline of some of the arguments against workfare as well as a template letter at the bottom.

Thanks guys!

dreamingofsun Mon 18-Feb-13 16:55:39

seems a reasonable response and concept to me too. its improving people's CV's and should improve their chances of getting jobs in future. If their skills are good enough to get paid work in a supermarket they obviously don't need to do it unpaid.

the only time i disagree with this is if a paid position is chopped as a result and i think that sometimes this might be difficult to spot.

ttosca Wed 20-Feb-13 15:09:59

Listen to serial liar and sociopath Ian Duncan Smith become increasingly agitated as he is called out on his lies and spin:

Iain Duncan-Smith was involved in an explosive bust-up with James O'Brien live on LBC 97.3.

www.lbc.co.uk/listen-obriens-explosive-row-with-duncan-smith-67738

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